Episode 52: Johnny Crockett Lopez Tech Maven

HEATHER NEWMAN:  Okay. Hello everyone. And here we are for another episode of the Mavens Do It Better podcast where we interview extraordinary experts who bring a light to our world. And I could not be more excited to have a wonderful friend and colleague on today. We have Johnny Crockett Lopez coming to us from Houston. Yes? 

JOHNNY CROCKETT LOPEZ:  Hey, yes, good morning. Good afternoon. 

HEATHER NEWMAN:  Awesome. Yay. Uh, yeah, so, uh, Johnny and I were together couple months ago at, uh, the SharePoint Saturday New York City. Uh, that was amazing. Tom Daly and crew put on a great event there, so we had a chance to chat a little bit and um, also go to a dueling piano bar. 

JOHNNY CROCKETT LOPEZ:  That was interesting. Yes, that was fun. 

HEATHER NEWMAN:  Yeah, absolutely. So, I don't know, I'm like trying to think about how long we've known each other. It's been a while. It's, I don't know. 

JOHNNY CROCKETT LOPEZ:  Three plus years? Three maybe four years. It's been a good while. 

HEATHER NEWMAN:  Yeah, that's three or four years. And so you are currently working at, and we just talked about this Schlumberger. Yes. See if I pronounced it correctly. 

JOHNNY CROCKETT LOPEZ:  Yes. Schlumberger. 

HEATHER NEWMAN:  Yeah. And what do you, tell everybody what you do there? 

JOHNNY CROCKETT LOPEZ:  Yeah, so at Schlumberger, um, which is an oil and gas services company that spans over about 185 countries and has over a hundred thousand employees. Um, I am an Office 365 and SharePoint, um, architect slash engineer, slash evangelist, slash just doer. Um, I focus mostly on the Office 365 suite of things. Um, I come from a SharePoint background and I also manage the Power Platform here at Schlumberger. So 

HEATHER NEWMAN:  That's amazing. And, and slash you're an awesome, sweet person. So let's put that in there too. 

JOHNNY CROCKETT LOPEZ:  Well thank you. 

HEATHER NEWMAN:  You're welcome. And so, you know, you, looking at, you know, obviously knowing you a little bit and getting to know you over the last bit, but you've also like you, you've really been in the either oil and gas or energy world forever. 

JOHNNY CROCKETT LOPEZ:  I have over 10 years of experience with the oil and gas energy. Um, and then also some experience in the military. 

HEATHER NEWMAN:  Yes. Thank you for your service by the way. Thank you. The navy right? 

JOHNNY CROCKETT LOPEZ:  My pleasure. Yes. I was in the navy for 10 years. Um, collectively, some active duty and some reserve. I served on two aircraft carriers, the USS Dwight D. Eisenhower and the USS Nimitz. Um, I've been on two deployments and, uh, I was actually an electrician in the navy on aircraft carriers. 

HEATHER NEWMAN:  Wow. That's amazing. I've been on the Midway down here in San Diego before and they're just, they're so big and crazy and amazing and just, yeah. Wow. How was that? What was that like? 

JOHNNY CROCKETT LOPEZ:  It's a floating city. 5,500 people on ship. Um, and um, there's, it's just, it's, it's, it's just amazing. Uh, watching the planes fly off and land on, on the aircraft and watching the helicopters go to and from. And it's just amazing the amount of, um, manpower it takes to run these ships. You get three square meals a day. Um, and then they also have, you know, hot dog bars and certain types of things. So the food is kinda different cause they, they cook for bulk. I think that's my biggest experience of the food. You can't just go dine out and, you know, eat those fancy dinners every night. You had to get what was served. So it was, um, 

HEATHER NEWMAN:  Wow, that's amazing. And I, I don't know enough about this, but as far as the other two aircraft carriers, do they deploy out of the same places all the time? Like are they like they have like their place and then you get deployed from there or do they move around a bit? 

JOHNNY CROCKETT LOPEZ:  Yeah, so there's home ports, um, I think they relocate the home port probably every five to 10 years. Um, from an aircraft carriers perspective, uh, I haven't been on a, an aircraft carrier that moved their home port, but I know like the Nimitz has gone from San Diego to Seattle, you know, could go sometimes on the east coast. It just depends on, it depends on what's needed by the country. 

HEATHER NEWMAN:  Yeah, yeah. The missions that are happening. That makes sense. Wow, that's such a cool experience. Um, and I know that you and I share a bit of community leadership and that, you know, I work here on Los Angeles on a lot of things, our SharePoint Saturday and our user group. And you've been the head of the SharePoint Saturday and the user group for a long time in Houston. How, how have you seen that grow from the time you sort of took things over? 

JOHNNY CROCKETT LOPEZ:  It's had its ups and downs. When SharePoint was really popping, you know, in the, uh, late two thousands and you know, 2010 timeframe. Um, we had, we would get anywhere between a hundred and hundred and fifty per session, um, which is a 150 people each month. So we meet on the third Wednesday of each month at the Microsoft Center here in Houston. Um, it's grown, it's gone down. We're about 60 to 70 people. Um, so it, we renamed ourselves, uh, last year, uh, we used to be called the Houston SharePoint user group. Now we are the, uh, Houston Office 365 community. So we just went from a user group to more of a community based focus where we can, um, we have a more wider range of, um, technologies that we can speak about. 

HEATHER NEWMAN:  Yeah. I think everybody, like a lot of us who are in, in this, you know, who have been involved in user groups or their SharePoint Saturdays are feeling that too. Right? Like SharePoint still as wonderful as it's ever been going like gangbusters. But I think obviously with the onset of Microsoft teams and some of the other technologies and just Office 365 in general as a productivity, technology platform, it makes sense, right? The brand is so strong for SharePoint though, right? And the community is so strong, it's kind of hard to go there, but I think that people are making that transition. You know, a lot of the different user groups. 

JOHNNY CROCKETT LOPEZ:  Absolutely. SharePoint is definitely has a strong awareness. It's pretty much the backbone to a lot of things like teams and one drive and the different types of technologies. So, um, definitely there's a user, there's a user presence there, a technology presence. But because of the larger ecosystem of Office 365, Azure and Power Platform, um, you know, it's just going to be, uh, you gotta keep SharePoint in there. So, we also changed SharePoint Saturday. Um, it's Aka SharePoint Saturday. It's the Houston Office 365 Saturdays. So we've, we've brought in more, uh, we bring in about 10 to 15 Microsoft MVPs from across the country, sometimes across the world. And we have about five Microsoft speakers that usually speak at our events. So, and then, yeah. And we try to get some local up and coming speakers. I always save slots for them because we all, we've all started from somewhere. Um, and you know, we have to make sure that we're getting fresh faces and fresh topics in, um, the communities to present, um, to our user base here in Houston. 

HEATHER NEWMAN:  Yeah, I believe in that too. I think that's super important. I, we worked on this year for ours because it's, ours is coming up September 28th. Um, and Oh my gosh, I can't even believe it in like two weeks. And, um, or like less than that. And, uh, uh, like kind of even a more like 101 track. You know, cause I think sometimes we forget that, that, you know, we may have been doing this. I mean I've, I, I realize it's been 18 years for me since I started on the team, way back in Redmond, you know, when it was called the code name and all of that. But there's still people that are new to this and haven't had, you know, all the experience. And so like having some more of those 101 tracks and, or first-time speakers giving those. I love that too. I love that you're doing that. That's super cool. Um, oh, I have a question. So when, I know you're a beautiful speaker, by the way, I love your sessions so wonderful at all of that. And what was your, do you remember? What was your first speaking, and it could be in the tech space or wherever, but when did you like step on the stage for the first time? 

JOHNNY CROCKETT LOPEZ:  Yeah, so I actually did a Share conference. I don't know if you remember Share. So, yeah, my first speaking was at a Share conference. I want to say it was back in like 2008, 2009. Um, I met Dux Raymond Sy during that time and you know, since then we've always stayed in touch and become friends in the community as well. So, um, I think it was, that was the first time I spoke, and it was about SharePoint, so I did a lot of that SharePoint training back, um, in oil and gas. So, doing a lot of, um, how to use SharePoint, when you use it, you know, building lists, building library, SharePoint sites, permissions. You know, the whole gamut of SharePoint 2007, 2010 and then 2016 and 2013 and 2019 and whatever flavor they come out with next. And that's my passion and my passion is, you know, educating and helping people become more proficient in the technology to better, um, their workload or better their lives in general. So, um, and that's why I do this. 

HEATHER NEWMAN:  Right. Yeah, no, that's totally awesome. Yeah. And you were just at a SPTechCon too, right? 

JOHNNY CROCKETT LOPEZ:  I was, I did a couple sessions, a couple of workshops, uh, did two workshops and I did a session. Um, I've been doing a lot more around Microsoft search. Uh, I think it's a really good technology that could help, um, tremendously improve search, uh, in organizations. 

HEATHER NEWMAN:  Yeah. That's cool. I love that show. I, it's, you know, it's like, remembering when all of these things happened, you know, when first started it was, you know, it was like SharePoint TechCon and SP Fest, you know, and I think, gosh, it was like some of the, even the E2.0 and some of those things, you know, and like to see them have blossomed into what they are is super cool and that they're still around, you know, and that their drawing people, it's pretty cool. I have a question about your hashtag learn it all versus know at all. Where did that come from and will you talk a little bit about that? I think that's so awesome. 

JOHNNY CROCKETT LOPEZ:  Absolutely. So I stole this from someone else. This was a speaker at, um, uh, it was, I can't remember exactly who it was but she was talking about the learn it all mentality versus the know it all mentality. And I think it's very important, especially in today's technology with the combination of, you know, you have a lot more IT pros slash business analysts slash, I need to work with a business to get a common task done so you, you see more personality in IT than you did 10, 20 years ago. Um, so I think it's very important to learn it all. So you're always learning. So once you stop learning is when you, you start turning stale. Um, instead of having the know it all mentality where you walk into a room and you just, you know, you just think you know everything and then it just becomes a very, uh, a very difficult situation, you know, with other people as well. So always willing to learn, always wanting to learn, um, and you know, makes it a lot easier to work with people when you're constantly learning with them and it builds rapport, right? So if you can learn something from them, they feel empowered. And that's the other thing is you want to empower people. You want to make them feel, um, like they're, they're contributing just as much as you are. 

HEATHER NEWMAN:  Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean I think it's about empowerment and value. Right. And I, I, it's funny, I giggled cause I used the Hashtag always learning a lot as well. And I was like, you know, like great minds, peas in a pod. So that's super cool. 

JOHNNY CROCKETT LOPEZ:  Yeah, I liked that. I just, I just gravitated towards it cause that's my personality. Like I'm always, I'm always looking to learn something, whether it's a SharePoint, more SharePoint or PowerApps, Flow, you know, those different types of things or just learning about the business. 

HEATHER NEWMAN:  Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And um, you, so tell me about, let's go back. Let's go way back to the way back, like in the station wagon, which millennials, a station wagon is a very large car that we all used to ride in the way back facing out, which was, I don't know, kind of silly if you think about it, cause when you put the kids back there and it's like, well if you get rear-ended, that's trouble. But anyway, you're way back. Like where are, where are you talk about where you're from and where he came up and all that fun stuff. 

JOHNNY CROCKETT LOPEZ:  So, I came, um, I actually started out as a user. So, one day, um, many moons ago, I guess 10 plus years ago, uh, we had this thing called SharePoint 2003. And, uh, I actually learned it in the military. So, we would use this to manage some of the, kind of like our standard operating procedures or task work orders in SharePoint. So I was like, Hey, this is pretty cool. I like this. Um, so I started doing, you know, started learning this or doing more research, and then I got interested in like, hey, there's a free training for learning how to be an administrator on SharePoint 2003. So the CBT the military provided, uh, it was like a 10 hour, you know, self-paced course. Took it, passed it, got that badge and just from there, just decided this is what I wanted to do in my career. I was already going to school for business information systems, so I kind of had the business savvy, uh, and then also a little bit of IT. So I decided just to go full fledge. Hey, I'm going to start my way through working as a user to a business analyst, to, uh, administrator to IT pro to architect. And that's kind of where I come from. So, um, I started at SharePoint 2003, so, and I've kind of grew up with the evolution of SharePoint and how it's helped and how it's hurts and how it's come in between. So, um, very good platform. I think it's very, uh, very collaborative. And, and, uh, user friendly, um, as we can see it. 

HEATHER NEWMAN:  Yeah, absolutely. And so you're a busy fella, you run around and you know, do all these speaking engagements. You obviously have a full time job. And I love seeing on Facebook all your pictures of your, your sweet breakfast crew a lot of the times and all of that. So how do you balance being a dad and doing all this, all this amazing stuff that you do, you know, not only to get paid for it, but for free and all of that. What's your balance? How do you do that? 

JOHNNY CROCKETT LOPEZ:  Yeah, for sure. I mean, cause you know, managing the, the user group and the SharePoint Saturday and then I also, uh, operate, I'm a CO owner for the Houston PowerApps and Flow user group, helping them get started. Um, but yeah, you know what? I surround myself with good people. Um, you know, we have a good, a good support crew. Um, not only from, um, the community perspective but also from my home life. Um, you know my, I have two, two beautiful kids of my own. Um, and then I foster my nephew full time. So, um, it, it, it can be challenging sometimes, but it's a lot of late nights. So kids go to bed at eight, you know, I plug in and get some stuff done in the evening time or you know, early morning, those different types of things. But I always find a good work life balance. I don't work too much. I want to focus on family. I'm to that point in my career where I really want to focus on my family. My, my son's four, my daughter's going to be seven. Missing her second front tooth. So I want to make sure that I'm there for those memories and there for their pickups at school and drops off and those different types of things. Cause I'm heavily involved. I love family, very family oriented. I think I look at the community as a family as well. Um, you know, so, uh, I, I really make time for that and to make sure that yes, there's work on the desk, but at the end of the day that it works going to be there when you get to the next day. Um, and it's not as critical as time with your family. 

HEATHER NEWMAN:  Absolutely. I think that's a thing I love about our, our SharePoint community, our Microsoft community in that, you know, we know each other. You know, it's, it's not just that we like pop in and speak and take off or whatever, but that, you know, I actually know that you have kids cause we're connected and we've talked, we talk about those things or, or you know when things happen and we need each other. Yeah. I've seen that in my own community recently here with some things where people needed some support and I love that we feel brave and, or vulnerable enough to say, Hey, you know, I need some help or could you give me a shout out or I just put all of this stuff together might you just hit the share button once or whatever it is. You know what I mean? And I, I'm glad that, that we have that and cause not every place does, you know, 

JOHNNY CROCKETT LOPEZ:  Not every place does. Yeah. 

HEATHER NEWMAN:  Yeah. And how, and how has, so you've been at, um, Schlumberger for I, I kinda just want to say that word over and over cause it sounds so fun in the mouth. Um, you've been there almost a year. Yeah. It's a big company, right? 

JOHNNY CROCKETT LOPEZ:  It's huge. Yeah. Um, you know, I really like working for the larger organization but I also like working for the mom and pops. Um, Schlumberger has been really good to me as far as allowing me to advance in my, and my personal and also my career growth. Um, and that's really hard to find. So, you know, when you go interview for a company and you go work for a company, they're evaluating you, but you should also evaluate that company. Um, because of the fact that this is where you could potentially work for the rest of your career or this could be a learning, um, uh, stone for yourself to be able to, um, move up and out. And that's when I had to do early in my career, I had to learn, okay, is this something that yes, I can probably stay here for 20 years and just do the same job, but I needed to move up and out to in order to, to accomplish what I wanted to accomplish. And you know, I worked for, you know, a fuel and gas companies, um, you know, like Halliburton and Anadarko, which is now Oxy, um, and you know, energy transfer, large pipeline company. And I've been in management from manager to director, those different types of things. But you know, I really have passion for that daily contributor kind of architect, uh, role. And again, this company has allowed me to do that and allowed me to grow and, and just be more productive in my career and have a family life. And that's what I looked for. That's what I've been looking for the last, you know, five plus years, um, to be able to do those types of things. So, um, 

HEATHER NEWMAN:  I love it when companies connect that sort of trust-based, positive culture into, you know, of course we all, you know, we all need to work and pay for our lives and all of that stuff. But it also, it's like when it's a good place to work, we spend what a third of our lives at work and if, and if they're actively creating programs and, or just trying to connect people on a larger level. I love that. And it's nice to hear that a company that big does that sort of thing for you. That's super cool. Cause that's not always the case. Yeah. Do you, um, do you find that, uh, let's talk about Texas for a minute. Um, I, I lived in Texas for a little while. Um, I lived in Dallas for three years when my ex-husband was in Grad school. And, um, it was interesting because coming from, I was from the Midwest and then spent a lot of time on the west coast, which is all very, you know, kind of crunchy and, you know, uh, like all of that. And then living in Texas, I was just like, wow, everything's so big here. Like everything's big, big cars, big hair, big teeth, big ideas, big, big, big. And you’re a Texan and you, you're, you're from Houston, right? Originally. That's your hometown? 

JOHNNY CROCKETT LOPEZ:  Yes. 

HEATHER NEWMAN:  What's, what's Texas like for everybody, I mean like what's your, where's your heart about that? 

JOHNNY CROCKETT LOPEZ:  Yeah, so, um, you know, I was born and raised in Texas, uh, born and raised in Houston. Um, I've lived outside of Texas for a number of years, you know, being in the military and kind of traveling a little bit. Um, Texas is, you know, it's my home. It's a great place to be for me. Um, you know, the, the state and the communities take care of each other. I mean, as you see in the news, we have natural disasters, like hurricanes, like just like you guys have, you know, the earthquakes and mudslides and fires. We also have that, the disaster here, but there's a really good community that comes together. Um, you know, we're Houston as the fourth largest city, I think. I think it's fourth, maybe third now, largest city in the country and it is growing. So, I think at one point in time there was a thousand people a week coming into Houston, um, each week. And yeah, it, the growth here is just tremendous. Um, you know, it's, it's, it's historic too as well, so I can drive three hours anywhere in the state and, and see history, um, and be part of it, be at the Alamo in San Antonio, go to the hill country, uh, you know, in Austin, um, and go up to Dallas and, you know, look at, hey, the cowboys are up there, right. So, um, go down to Corpus and we have, we, we have the battleship of Texas that's still there for now, supposed to be moving in November, but there's so much history here and so much culture and its diversity and I really enjoy that about Texas. I've been to other places. I've lived in the Midwest, I lived up in Michigan, I lived in near Virginia, um, in Chicago. I've been on the east coast. I actually played baseball on the east coast in San Diego for a while. Um, it's just, you know, it's just the home, you know, you get rooted and you get grounded and um, yeah, you can drive in Houston for an hour and still be in Houston. Um, it's very nice. Uh, you know, I have family here, so my mom’s here, um, siblings live here, uh, you know, cousins, um, out the woodworks. But uh, so it's very, again, it's just diverse and I really enjoy Texas and being here in Houston. 

HEATHER NEWMAN:  Yeah, I love that too. We did a bunch of sort of day trips and different things out to different places. And I've, I've been to a lot of cities in Texas and you know, you're right, the history part of it is so grand and so cool. I definitely loved that about the state, but yeah, driving in Texas and you're just like, when I'm trying to get somewhere, I'm like, and I'm still here and it's eight hours later. It's just like, it's so big. It's so awesome. Yeah. And I remember in 2005 when Katrina happened, when, um, you know, so many people, you know, lots of people stayed in New Orleans, but lots of people did leave and, and Houston was a city that really embraced people and said, you know, groovy, come on, you know, and that was really cool. Um, yeah. How was the, as far as, you know, having, I know that there's been many hurricanes, but the last one, um, how is recovery going for all y'all there? 

JOHNNY CROCKETT LOPEZ:  I think we're pretty much recovered from a point I; a Houston had a lot of flooding that it happens when you get dumping rain. Um, so in the last, the last year or so, it's not really, you know, when I really worried about the hurricanes is we've had, um, downpours that just kind of flood the city because we're growing so fast and there's a concrete, you know, city stove, um, there's, there's nowhere to go with the water. So we tend to flood a little easier. But, uh, I, I think the recovery is great. I think the economy is strong here in Houston, you know, the barrel, the price of the barrel, um, runs Houston. Cause we're, we're an oil city, so I think that's been, the price of the barrel has been at a good midpoint where it's thriving for everyone. Um, yeah, there's lots of companies moving here. We had Chevron and Slumberger, Occidental, we have a large, uh, presence here. Uh, even for, from a financial perspective, um, there's, you know, hospitals, there's lots of hospitals here for, you know, cancer patients burn patients and stuff like that. So, um, yeah, definitely have a, a huge, um, hub here in Houston. And, we have two airports. 

HEATHER NEWMAN:  And a lot of good food. I love that Montrose area of Houston. It's very colorful and also a lot of good food. But I tend to kind of hang out there when I've come to the city before and visited friends. It's kind of fun. That's awesome. Um, so with what you're doing in oil and gas and, and all the, you know, you, you're, you know, you, you mentioned search. Is there anything else that you feel right now is sort of that top of mind tipping point for companies as far as technology goes that you're seeing maybe a trend of like, oh, you know, everybody's doing this or everybody should be doing that or that sort of thing. Is there anything that pops up besides the search? 

JOHNNY CROCKETT LOPEZ:  You know, Microsoft Teams is, uh, Microsoft is pushing Microsoft Teams. So you're going to see a growth in collaboration, but also you're going to see a growth and support on the infrastructure side. And when I say that, it’s mainly your day to day operations, um, you know, our environment, we have probably 30,000 plus sites and it grows, um, frequently because, you know, we add more groups. We had more teams, we had more yamm, we use Yammer as well. So I think, um, search is definitely a hot topic. Microsoft Teams would be up next, but the Power Platform is, is the main one that I, I see, um, especially here is just getting so, so large. Um, you know, there's, our numbers are just, um, tremendous, uh, of what we support for a hundred thousand plus users. So we have, you know, a thousand apps probably created a week. Or, yeah, it's, it's amazing how quickly we're, um, we're growing. 

HEATHER NEWMAN:  Yeah. Will you talk a little bit exactly like tell our listeners like what the Power Platform is and what that means? 

JOHNNY CROCKETT LOPEZ:  Absolutely. Yes. So, when you hear PowerApps, when you hear Microsoft Flow, when you hear Power BI, um, the Power Platform is the, the backend that kind of manages and runs those workloads. Um, so the Power Platform is comprised of those three things. Um, some people say logic apps and Dynamics, uh, Dynamics is also part of the Power Platform, but it depends on how you consume it. Um, so that's being used as a way to enhance citizen development. So, what that means is that citizen developers, non-IT pros, can come in and quickly spin up an app, create a workflow for themselves without the help of a developer or, um, an IT organization. So, there it's empowering, um, the, the business to be able to build their own, um, applications or, or workflows or reports and dashboards, um, within a, uh, one area and be able to manage those. Right. So, um, let's talk about governance. So with governance, we have. Let’s talk about governance. Yeah. It's the biggest elephant in the room all the time. When you have that capability of empowering citizen developers, you also have to have governance around it. So, um, you know, data loss prevention policies, you have to make sure that your permissions are being set up where, um, you won't lose data, company data cause it's so easy to hook something up to a PowerApp and potentially lose, you know, the integrity of the data. Um, so there’s a lot of things you have to think about. How many, who can create apps, who can create Flows and there's limitations on licensing and all this other stuff that you have to think about. So, um, yeah, definitely the, the Power Platform is something that um, can, can benefit to the business and also, they create more, um, empowerment around creating solutions to solve business problems. 

HEATHER NEWMAN:  Absolutely. And I see the hashtag power addicts all over the place all the time with tons of colleagues. And I know that you, I see that with you too. Will you talk about that and what that is and how people might be able to get involved with that. 

JOHNNY CROCKETT LOPEZ:  Yeah. So there's a tee shirt for that. Just letting you guys know. 

HEATHER NEWMAN:  I've seen the t-shirt. Yes. 

JOHNNY CROCKETT LOPEZ:  Yeah, for sure. And it's not as it's not snowboard apparel. Just to let you guys know that because there's a, there is a, uh, power addicts, uh, apparel line. Yeah, it's pretty interesting. So, power addicts are, um, it’s a bunch of Power Platform enthusiast, right? Or, or evangelists that are, that's creating, um, buzz and, um, educating folks and showcasing their work. So, it's almost like what we're doing, um, in SharePoint Saturday is like, hey, you have an idea, you put together a presentation, you can go to SharePoint, you can go to SharePoint Saturday and show what you did on this migration. Um, that's what power addicts is. It's a small, you know, it's a group of folks that, um, uh, come together just like a community, from communities across communities, um, that can showcase, uh, anything from PowerApps, Flow, uh, Power BI. So, it's a really nice, uh, community that's built to, again, educate, um, folks on the Power Platform. 

HEATHER NEWMAN:  Right? Awesome. So if you're looking up Hashtag power addict on Twitter and other things, you can get involved that way. Because people are putting on different webinars and hangouts and I, there was one, uh, like on the third that was like come to a power addicts hang out. And those obviously seem to happen a lot. I keep seeing more and more. Okay, cool. That's awesome. 

JOHNNY CROCKETT LOPEZ:  Yeah. So thatAPIguy.tech/poweraddicts, they host, um, they host the hang outs. So it's a hang out once a month. Um, I, I'm not sure exactly when they meet, but they meet, I know they meet once a month and um, actually my colleague was on the previous month, uh, with the, with a couple of other folks, but they were talking about governance on Power Platform and all that good stuff. So yeah, it's a good community. If you want to, um, talk about power, power out Flow, give questions or you want to hear what other people are doing, it's really good community to be part of. 

HEATHER NEWMAN:  Cool. Yeah. Well everybody we'll make sure, and I'll get the information. I'll put it in the show notes for sure. So people can follow up on that. That's awesome. I have, I have another question. So I'm, I think from the learn it all know it l and then my always learning, I'm kind of obsessed with, you know, digital literacy, learning paths. Obviously, that's what I do with Content Panda, but I also do it in conjunction with just marketing and how do we see again that create those positive productive places to work. Um, I'm curious what you think about as far as, you know, you obviously work in this every single day and you've come up, you know, working on it for a long time. Um, do you feel that it's, you know, to really get in, one to keep up, I'm gonna ask you 14 questions in one. So hang on. To keep up with everything that's happening. And then also for somebody who is trying to get ahead on learning, is it about like go take classes, go do that or just go get a job, learn on the job? Or is it a combination of all things? I Dunno. What do you think that learning path or a learning path looks like or what's worked for you? There you go. 

JOHNNY CROCKETT LOPEZ:  Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, from a learning perspective, you know, uh, I'm no expert on, on training, but from my years of doing training and being trained, you know, there's different types of people, right? You have your doers that need to kind of learn and build, and you have people that can just watch a video and say, oh, I know how to do that. I can go do it. And then you also have the people that need a little bit of handholding and more courses. So I'm seeing a lot now that there's so much self-help out there right now that people are going out and doing it on their own, whether they're taking a class, whether they're doing, going it, you know, looking at Daniel Christian's, uh, PowerApps, you know, videos on YouTube or Shane Young's PowerApps videos on YouTube or going and taking a traditional class. Um, you know, or you know, Pluralsight, those, you know, Wonder Laura's stuff. Um, there's so much in even Content Panda, how about we build this cool intranet or this collaborative space. How can I get contextual hints on my screen to help the users get where they need to go? Right. So, you know, it's really, it's a lot of mixtures of a bunch. But it depends too as well. Like it depends on where the organization's journey is in Office 3`65. So if they're early in their journey, um, they might bring in some people to help training. They might buy a training platform, you know, like brainstorm, um, ```does all the office training for them, um, and construct that stuff for them, you know, Content Panda that can help out as well. Um, so it just depends on where they're at in their journey and this organization is all self and helping each other. Um, I can't tell you how many times, you know, I don't have an office. Um, I sit in an open cube area. People will walk by and see me sitting down at my desk and come ask me a question. Um, and it's just because, you know, they, we help each other and I've done the same thing. I need this to Flow the pull data from SQL and read the specific table and put it in the SharePoint list, um, and be able to put some filtering on it. Well, I know this guy knows some really good o data queries, so let's go talk to him. So stuff like that. I mean, it's a, it's a community. If you keep the community mentality in your organization, in your, um, your user base, you have, um, a better success rate. 

HEATHER NEWMAN:  Yeah, no, no, totally. No, I agree with you. I also, it's like I, I love connecting with other people in this space. You know, like I know the brainstorm folks and the storyal ladies and uh, you know, vitalist and we all sort of have come together under the auspices, Microsoft brought us together for the, that new learning pathways offering that they put out, you know, and they brought us all together as partners and we've been sharing like, here's how we do what we're doing and how we're leveraging it and stuff. And I love that about it because, you know, the world is big, there's a lot going on and there's, there's enough pie for everybody in my opinion, you know, and on the end user adoption level, like I love, you know, like the, we partnered with Combined Knowledge, but you know, I was just in Australia with, um, lovely Debbie Ireland who does that kind of stuff. And Darryl Webster, who is from adopt and embrace and Sarah Hasse and, and I go see a lot of the presentations, you know, cause I'm like, I talk on that, what are they talking about? And we're all very close on at least the pillars and, or like the 10 steps of Xyz to do it. And I love that we're kind of coming together more and more on that and you know, and then clients have the choice of, you know, it's like maybe I want somebody in my geography because it makes sense for it to be a New Zealand New Zealand thing or whatever it is. Um, but yeah, I really, I am enjoying learning from the other colleagues and the other people who are building cool products, you know? And I, I like that it doesn't seem like as competitive, I guess maybe, or maybe that's just me or I don't look at it that way, you know? 

JOHNNY CROCKETT LOPEZ:  Well, I mean, you have to, you have to know your competitors too, right? You have to know. But I, you know, every conference I go to, I sit, I will sit in sessions and sit there and like you said, listen to what they're saying, listen to what they're doing. Even if I don't want to speak on this session, you know, or I go into a session, yeah, I spoke on that last week. What are they talking about? It's always properly educating yourself. Um, and competition is good. It's healthy. As much as I would love to see Content Panda, just like being at every everyone's internet in the world. Yeah. You know, it, you know, there's, again, there's a piece of pie for everyone, right. That's just, you have the right attitude and I think that's excellent. 

HEATHER NEWMAN:  Yeah. Thanks. I try for sure. Um, so, uh, what is the one thing that you love doing that has nothing to do with your work? 

JOHNNY CROCKETT LOPEZ:  I love spending time with my kids. I think kids are our greatest investment. You know, some folks, yes, they don't have kids, you know, they, they find other investments. But I think when you have kids, that's your greatest investment and in shaping, um, helping shape their legacy and, and coming up into the world to be prosperous and to be, um, to make a difference. Right? So, that's, that's one, that's the most enjoyable thing that I do outside of work. The second one would be, um, would probably just be running, going out for a run at a different park. In Texas when it's 110 degrees, you know, I'm not going outside. I'm going from my office, to my truck, to my house, to my, in my house. Um, but it's, you know, running is enjoyable for me. Um, I, yeah, it's a, it's one way to disconnect from everything cause being so busy. If you constantly stay connected, um, you know, gray hair starts coming out on my beard and I don't want that. Not yet. Um, but yeah, I just, yeah. Um, you have to find a physical and a mental release to be healthy. Um, and I think in order to be the best you, you have to go find that mental and physical release. So when you, when you, when you're with your family or you come to the office, you can be the best you. 

HEATHER NEWMAN:  Yeah, I agree. It's becoming, I give, I've been giving a presentation about becoming the expert of yourself and I was like, I put that together and there was some of it that's like, be hydrated, get outside, self-care, you know? And it's people who are like, I know that. I'm like, yeah, but do you do it right? And I think we all sometimes need reminders of those things. So that's why I love that question. So thanks for answering that. Um, oh, I'll hit you up with my last one. And, uh, it is, uh, what in, and I love sharing this with our, with our listeners. So something that someone, an experience, whatever comes to mind, but that's really sparked you, that was a real big force and an influence on where you are today and makes you who you are. 

JOHNNY CROCKETT LOPEZ:  So, I can name, I can name two people, um, for, you know, especially those, and this is one of them is not a general person. It's one of those, uh, it's the person that really took risk, um, of hiring me at a young point in my career and let me prove myself. And I've had a couple of those folks that did that. So, um, as you know, coming through your career as an intern or you're, a recent Grad, you're a new hire, um, who's going to give you that chance? So I've had a couple people that have given me that chance to prove myself and for me to show, um, how I can, you know, benefit what we're bringing to the table. Um, another one is a person that's one of my uncles. So in high school, um, I lived with one of my uncles up in Michigan. I mean he really pushed me to become a better person, become a better athlete. Um, he really pushed me to, uh, become who I am today with hard work ethic and inspiration to not only make yourself better, but also make the people around you better. 

HEATHER NEWMAN:  Yeah. That's awesome. I am from Michigan. I don't know if you knew that I was born there. Yeah. 

JOHNNY CROCKETT LOPEZ:  Go blue go blue. 

HEATHER NEWMAN:  I've got go blue in my family. Yeah. But I also have go Spartans. So, um, and then I have some that are, that were boiling that popped down and we're boilermakers too. But yeah, Michigan's a beautiful place. I was just there for my aunt's 80th birthday and you know, when we live in these big urban centers, um, you know, here I'm in Los Angeles you're in Houston. And you don't have to go for a foot outside our cities to have big changes of the way people, you know, socioeconomically and all that stuff. And it's always really good for me to go visit my family and remember, you know, that I'm from a small town, and the values and also just the struggles that happen there are different, you know, and I think we forget that sometimes living in our bubbles, me sitting here in, you know, Marina del Rey looking at the boats or whatever, you know, and I, I love that, you know? And where were you in Michigan? 

JOHNNY CROCKETT LOPEZ:  I was actually, I graduated high school, the class of 2000, um, with about 70 people in [inaudible], Michigan. So if you're familiar with that, um, it's, no, it's south of Holland, Michigan and north of Kalamazoo. 

HEATHER NEWMAN:  Okay. Gotcha. All right. I know where the, I, yeah, west side and that, Holland, Michigan is one of the coolest places in the world. It's with all of its windmills and everything. My grandfather actually created a windmill in the backyard. We were in Bay City, Michigan and he created a like working actual windmill because of Holland, Michigan. Funnily enough. Yeah, it was pretty cool. Well, awesome. Well, you're a love. I love talking to you and, and listening to you speak and talk about all this stuff. I really appreciate you being on and sharing your story with everybody today. It's great. 

JOHNNY CROCKETT LOPEZ:  Yeah. Thank you for having me. I appreciate you taking the time and I appreciate what you do as well in the community and thank you for your contributions to making SharePoint great again. Right? 

HEATHER NEWMAN:  SharePoint's always been great, but, but you know, it, you know, everything can always be better. Right. Another level, uh, on it for sure. So awesome. Well, Johnny, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. So, and where am I gonna see you next? 

JOHNNY CROCKETT LOPEZ:  Um, so Cincinnati is my next stop. I was going to do Los Angeles, but it just didn't work out with my schedule cause I have my kids every other weekend. 

HEATHER NEWMAN:  Yeah. We're sad, but we understand. So, 

JOHNNY CROCKETT LOPEZ:  yeah, I'm always said that I can't go to LA, but, or San Diego or you know, Seattle or anything like that. Um, so yeah, I had, I signed up for Ignite, um, they sold out, so I'm on the wait list just like everyone else. Um, but I have Cincinnati, I'm thinking about doing, um, San Juan if they have it. Um, and what other ones that I have on my list, I have to look at the sps event site. Are we still, are we still on? 

HEATHER NEWMAN:  Yeah. 

JOHNNY CROCKETT LOPEZ:  Okay. Yes. So, so if you are interested in SharePoint Saturdays, um, they're, they're global. So if you go to s, Sam, Papa, Sam, events.org, um, you can find out when the next event is and one close closest to you. Um, as you, as we spoke,, Los Angeles is a September 28th. Uh, we have Boston in October, Ottawa, Cincinnati, um, Denver. So I will be in Cincinnati next and I think that might wrap up my year. Um, I'm looking at Charlotte. Um, yes, I think you're going to be in Charlotte. 

HEATHER NEWMAN:  Uh, I'm not sure yet. Not sure. Yeah. 

JOHNNY CROCKETT LOPEZ:  So, yeah, so I'm looking at Charlotte, um, in December, but other than that, I think I'm done for the rest of the year. Um, and then San Francisco, um, in 2020 in February 2020, um, SPTechCon will be in San Francisco in February, 2020. 

JOHNNY CROCKETT LOPEZ:  Right. Okay. Gotcha. Lots of opportunities. Probably say hello and give you a hug. All right, cool. Well, again, thank you for being on and folks, that was another episode of the Mavens Do It Better podcast. You can catch us on a iTunes, on Spotify, on stitcher, on Google play, all the normal, wonderful places. And here is too another beautiful day on this big blue spinning sphere. Thanks everybody. 

 

Episode 51: Women in Tech Mavens Lise Rasmussen and Christina Gibson

Heather:  Hello everyone. Here we are again for another Mavens Do It Better podcast where we interview extraordinary experts who bring a light to our world. I could not be more excited today. I think you may be my first two-fer, two people on a podcast. Very excited. Um, I have, uh, the hosts of a wonderful podcast, the WIT Girls podcast. I have both Christina Gibson and Lise Rasmussen here today who are coming to you very late in their evening across the pond as it were. And so ladies, yay. Say hello and thank you for being on. 

Christina:  Thank you very much for having us. 

Heather:  You betcha. We've been trying to schedule this for how long? I don't even know. 

Christina:  Um, maybe like a year or something. Since the last ESPC conference in Copenhagen. 

Heather:  I think that's true. Oh my God. I was like, we're not waiting till Prague. We're getting this done for goodness sakes. Right? Oh my goodness. So, so where are both of you right now in the world? 

Christina:  Stockholm. Sweden! 

Heather:  Yeah. Me Too. Stockholm, in Hammarbyhöjden, which is in the city center almost. 

Heather:  Yeah. Wonderful. Yeah, I have been to both of those cities and loved them very much. So, uh, I think when I was in Copenhagen for the first time in 2004, I was determined to get another passport stamp. So I took the ferry over to Malmö just so I could say I've been to Sweden. 

Christina:  that's actually my hometown, Malmö. 

Heather:  Oh, it is? Okay. Yeah. It's beautiful. 

Heather:  I know, but you must come to Stockholm also, Heather. It's even more beautiful here I must say. 

Heather:  That's, yeah, I actually, I went to Stockholm for ESPC, goodness, three, when was it? Three years? Four years ago? 

Christina:  Four years, I think. Yeah. 

Heather:  Yeah. So that's, yeah, that's awesome. It was a European for the, for listeners, that's the ESPC is the European SharePoint Conference is what we're talking about. And um, yes, yes. We've all been going to that show and um, uh, love, you know, Tracy and all the folks who put that show on. So thank you. Love being a part of that. That's been great. I, I've had wonderful time being at the, um, I did the first keynote for the women in tech lunch there back, I think that was actually in Stockholm. So my first one. 

Christina:  I went to that as well. Did you Lise? 

Lise:  I think so. It was quite many years. I'm just thinking about the former with lunch we had at the ESPC in Copenhagen last year that you also held there, Heather, or you were, you were, yeah, you were there. So we tend to meet that ESPCs, right? 

Heather:  Yeah, pretty much, you know, I mean why not? I love coming to Europe at least once a year. So it makes me very happy. So 

Christina:  yeah. Are you coming to Prague also Heather? 

Heather:  I am, I am. My hotel is booked. Yay. So, and I've never been. Have you been to Prague before? 

Lise:  I've been to the city. I love it. I've been there several times. They are great at beer, chocolate, and just a beautiful city. 

Heather:  Oh awesome. I know, I love, I love the art deco or not art deco, Art Nouveau Movement. I can't, I want to see all the Alphonse Mucha stuff. I am obsessed so I, yeah, I'm excited to go check that out for sure. And I will definitely go have a beer with you ladies. Absolutely. So that is awesome. So 

Christina:  I used to be a flight attendant, so I flew to Prague, but I was too close to be holding a stopover because it was a turnaround, a fight for us, unfortunately. 

Heather:  Yeah. So It was a tease. 

Christina:  Yeah. It was a tease. 

Heather:  Oh my God. That's awesome. So you two have a wonderful podcast. Yeah, I love it. WIT Girls at and. 

Lise:  You too. 

Heather:  Thank you. Thank you. Ladies doing podcasts is awesome. Right? So, um, so will you tell me about the, tell me the origin story of the podcast and I don't know which one of you wants to go first, Christina or Lise, but tell me, tell me how it happened. 

Lise:  Yeah, so I guess I'll start, I'm the, I'm the guilty one in this. So, um, it all started with actually that Christina and I met at my former work, uh, in 2017 in the spring time. Christina, right? 

Christina:  Yeah. 

Lise:  She came for an interview there and I was the one holding the interviews and it ended up with my boss leaving the room so that she and I could talk because we found each other there. 

Christina:  Soul mate. 

Lise:  Yeah, it was really like a perfect match there. And uh, later that year, um, I have always wanted to do a podcast. I'd been blogging and so on. And uh, I think it takes so much time to blog. So I thought why not dig into podcasting and try to share the information out through a podcasts. So I always wanted to do that. So I started that in a, I think the Autumn of 2017 and then I literally forced Christina to join me as my co-host. 

Christina:  Not really forcing but I mean we are very different. I mean we are very alike but very different because Lise, she's so organized and she writes all the texts and every stuff, everything that we are going to talk about in the episode. And I have so much going on everywhere. So I'll just bump into the show and babble. 

Lise:  With grace. With grace Christina. 

Christina:  Thanks. But we can babble together. 

Heather:  Yeah, yeah. That's awesome. And we were just talking before we all jumped on. How many do you have, um, out in the world now? 

Lise:  Um, I, I looked at the list actually today, just the top countries in the last seven days. It's insane. It's like 24 different countries. These are all from Malaysia to Hong Kong to Japan, to Australia, to Canada, to India to all over the world. And the US of course. Um, I'm amazed how it has spread and it must be the same for your podcast, Heather. 

Heather:  Yeah, yeah. I, I think well, you know, you all live in Europe and stuff as well, but, but you know, but to get people in Asia, that's amazing, right? You know? And I think we all travel a lot, you know, around the world and speak and have clients and all of that stuff with our technology and all of the, with our businesses. And so, yeah, I think it's also because of that, that, you know, you get, you get a global audience, you know, and you know, I think you do it too. I host people from all over the world, right? On the podcast as well in many different industries and all of that. So yeah, I, I, I'm always blown away. You know, I'll get, you know, a DM or somebody from some, you know, somewhere that's, you're just like, wow, okay, awesome. Sri Lanka! 

Christina:  I just got the other day on Twitter, on Twitter, there was a girl from Norway, who said, oh, thank you so much for, uh, bringing up the struggles. I recognize them. I also have them, you know, with the things that we talk about because we, we want to share challenges and experiences and you know, struggles we have in our daily work as consultants and just share it and discuss it then it's so much, it's, it's very nice to hear the feedback that people recognize what we talk about. So that's really cool to hear. 

Heather:  Absolutely. And can I talk about your Instagram account for a second? First of all, I love it. 

Lise:  What about it? I'm so nervous. 

Heather:  No, It's wonderful. I love it. I love. Awesome. And so, everybody, um, so go on Instagram and it's wit w I t girls pod, p o d, witgirlspod. And then they have both of their handles up there too sharepointbabe and bananas. Banana Bananas. How the hell do you? 

Christina:  Bananvaskan. It's like the banana pouch. You know like the, the pouch you had on the, on your belly when you're out traveling a savings the money. 

Heather:  Oh my gosh. 

Lise:  From 20 years ago. Just kidding. 

Heather:  That's what it's called? Bananavaskin. I'm saying it's totally wrong. Say it again. 

Christina:  My kids, they call my stomach the banana pouch. 

Heather:  Wow. That's hysterical. We call those a fanny pack here. And I know that. I know. And the word fanny in many languages means another body part. Right? Cause you both laughed. I know. 

Christina:  It's not something you want. 

Heather:  Yeah, I know. Well and the fanny pack has come back. I like your word for it. Much better for goodness sakes. I mean, you know, cause I've been seeing all the advertisements because you know these front pouches are back, right? Because of all the rave culture and festivals and all that stuff, especially here and, and so like you see all the advertisements of fanny pack and anytime I'm with somebody who is not from the United States, they're all like, ha, ha, ha, ha, fanny pack, you know. 

Christina:  It's just extra funny. 

Heather:  Yeah. It's funny for sure. No, no, I love, I love your Instagram cause like you just, you both are so gorgeous and happy and always smiling. And I always see a lovely beverage in front of you too. So like, you know how to have a good time. the two of you in the mat or no, it's not both of you. But the one with the masks too. That's hilarious. But that's not real is it? And that's not you too. I was like, that's you and somebody else. Oh my God. Yeah, 

Lise:  It was of Christina and Christian, actually it happened by accident. Yeah. And so I took a picture of those too. And then we send, we sent that picture to someone who wasn't in the conference just to tease them a bit. And then the filter had automatically added, been added to make like small faces all of a sudden with a towel on their head. 

Heather:  Oh my gosh. That's hysterical. That's great. And the podcast is on all of the usual suspects, right? I think you are on SoundCloud. Yeah? 

Lise:  Yeah. SoundCloud. 

Christina:  Spotify. Stitcher and all those. Yeah. Every podcast platform you can think of. 

Heather:  I know, right. We got to get them on everything for sure. And you've got about 25, 27 that you have out in the world. Yeah,? 

Christina:  27 episodes. And I was like, what? Haven't we done more, we've been going on forever, but it's like we just release one episode a month, so be sure to subscribe so you don't miss out. Yeah, 

Heather:  absolutely. Everybody do subscribed. So once a month. Okay. That makes sense to me. Yeah. 

Lise:  We try to help to keep it down to 30 minutes. But it's hard. 

Heather:  I know. 

Christina:  It's hard, we can't stop talking. 

Heather:  Yeah, I hear ya. You know everybody's all like, I look over and I'm like, oh my God, we're at 45 minutes. Oh, and we still have things to say! Yeah. It's, that's hilarious. You know, and so it's a, the podcast is a combination of, you know, SharePoint and office 365, that's your focus, right? 

Lise:  Yeah. 

Christina:  True. 

Heather:  And how do you get your, uh, how do you get your folks to, to say yes when, you know, where do you get your, your guests from? 

Christina:  Oh, we hadn't had a guest in a while. Now we have lovely Sandy we've had and uh, we had some, but we, it was long time ago now, but that wasn't hard. I mean, people in this community loved to talk and share. 

Heather:  Well, and for the most part it's you two obviously talking about different aspects of technology. Um, is that, do you kind of see it's for that, like how do you choose that? Is it like something that's hot and new or something that you really love. And you know, I, I know some of this, but explain it to our, our listeners, if you will. 

Christina:  I think we try to talk about the new stuff that we see in the message center and whatever had turned up in our tenant. And also, uh, we talk about, uh, getting almost, I mean 80% out of the product, that 20% is not nearly as good as it should be. So it's the struggle. Struggles. Yeah. Because, uh, if, if, uh, there is a new feature release, there's always something that we need to tweak to get it, uh, the best for the customer. But we love, it's like having a Christmas every time we open a tenant really. 

Lise:  It's only in this world, we would look at it like that. No, but I mean it's like, you say, and we, I think what me and Christina often talk about is because we work with these products daily and we want to really discuss what have we been working on lately. Maybe someone who listens, can get some input or get some feedback for us to learn something. And that's one of the feedbacks we've also gotten is that people actually have learned things through listening to the podcast. So I think we, we try to mix that with a bit of a sense of humor. I mean, we joke a lot about things, but we can also criticize things, things that honestly, our honest opinions on what works and what does not. Like I said, the 80 20 is there is always a constant struggle. 

Heather:  Yeah, no, absolutely. You know, I, I, I agree with you and I, you know, I love it. It's always just nice to get a different perspective, you know what I mean? I think that, you know, and especially perspectives from all over the world, you know about, because you know, I guess so you both, uh, have, have, you know, you both are working and you have different jobs and you've had different jobs, you know, at different times and, but for the most part you're working with clients on architecting and all of that, right? For the most part, 

Lise:  Yes, correct. We are both consultants and I think we are quite similar in our work roles as Solution architects. 

Christina:  Yeah. Solution architects. And, uh, I'm always, uh, I'm working with government issue, and the governance and stuff like that as well. And Eh, you are better at the server world, Lise. 

Lise:  Yeah, but not, I think since, sorry you what did you say, Heather? 

Heather:  Nothing. 

Christina:  Server Admin, 

Lise:  yeah, I thought I heard Heather say something. Sorry. No, but I mean um, I'm not seeing some and obviously we're in the cloud so we don't need to focus so much on the server administration anymore and that I like that because now we can focus more on the product. What can we actually do with SharePoint, with all the other applications we had and Office 365 and the best part, how can we make people's days better and more like use these apps in an efficient and smart way and help their day become easier with these products. And that's something I burn for. I love that. And also working on prem of course. Um, because they all have hosting partners right. I'm not allowed to touch the server anyway cause I can just focus on the good parts. It's like building stuff and yeah. 

Christina:  And I've been working, I started out with SharePoint quite late or as a consultant because I've only been working as a consultant for about four or five years. And before that I was in business and I was doing a lot of digital transformation from paper based processes. And I've been seeing the demand, I mean, longing for something that would get rid of the papers, automate the processes and all of a sudden, I was working with a fantastic product, which is like a smorgasbord of automating stuff, flow, PowerApps. So yeah. So I like, yeah, because I can understand the businesses need and now I can even do something about it. 

Lise:  And I bet I've worked with SharePoint for more than 15 years now. So, I, I felt when the cloud came and SharePoint online, that was very welcome because for me it was something totally different than I'd been working with before. And all the new things constantly coming and I love change. Change is good. So for me this is a beautiful product to work with. 

Heather:  Yeah, absolutely. No, I love it too. I mean, I, I started at Microsoft, uh, in 2001 and we were still calling it code name. And I've always been a marketer first, you know, um, and technologist second and, uh, yeah, I've, you know, I got to watch it change over many years. And also when, when we were kind of a startup, you know, inside of Microsoft. We have a little bit more money than most startups, so I got to do all kinds of crazy things, you know. Um, but, uh, but yeah, it's been amazing to watch the journey of the product. And I think, I know you've, I'm sure you probably feel this too, but I, I think that the, I believe our community is just one of the strongest technology communities or just communities in general I've ever been involved with. Yeah. 

Christina:  Agree. Yeah. 

Lise:  And that's why it feels so good to contribute to something, Eh, I hope we do that sort of, that’s our goal with the podcast, at least. 

Heather:  Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think everybody has a voice and chooses to use it in different ways. Right. And I agree with you, you know, I love to write as well, but blogging, woof, you know, it's a lot of work and I give it up to people who do it. You know, there's some people out there who write the most amazing technical blogs and I'm always like, holy cats, that's all, that's a lot of work. Um, you know? 

Lise:  it's a lot of work because it takes longer time to make all the screenshots to write all the steps and to think about, okay, you can't miss out if you're going to do a good, a really good blog post, you can't like miss out on information. It needs to be packed with facts and it should also be fun to read maybe or something. So it's not that just points or something, it needs to be like readable. 

Heather:  Yeah, no, I agree. I mean, yeah. You know, and I think people do such a nice job with that. But we almost have too much information. Sometimes I'm like, who do I look at? What do I read? Like, where do I go? You know, I have my favorites, of course, but, you know, definitely it's super fun. So I want to go, I want to talk, I'm going to sort of go backwards a little. And you know, I was looking at, you know, it's so funny, you know, we've, we've talked a little bit, but like it feels to me like every time we see each other we're like, hi, oh my God! And we're like, hug. And then we all were like, okay, I'll see you sometime, you know. So I'm like, we're going to no, right. So we're going to sit down and Prague and actually have a like face to face Chit Chat, we're going to schedule it and everything. But um, so I was looking at your, you know, LinkedIn's and some of your bio stuff and I was looking at um, Christina and were you, so what's the to fly Nordic where did, where did that, what is that you are, do you, are you a pilot? Cause I've seen it cause you, you just like what's going on with that? Cause I was just looking at the other podcast and I was like, what's happening here? So 

Christina:  no, TUI Fly Nordic is actually one of the biggest charter companies in the world, I mean it's TUI really. It's a, it went from Germany, England, Scandinavia, all over Europe really. And, um, well it's a large company. And I started out as an airline hostess, well that was 1987 in Copenhagen and I was working as a flight attendant until 2000 and then I started to work in the office instead. And I was trying computer for the first time in my life. And I wrote, Word document with comics sans font. And I'm so ashamed. But then I continue onward in the company. And I ended up at the technical department and that's where one of my, uh, well sweetheart bosses, uh, sort of thought I could do something with a computer and he sent me to a course, uh, for Access database to start building databases and yeah, and Excel. And I, I, I've always been, uh, into logic stuff and know how to organize files in a certain way . naming conventions. They always had it inside on me. So having tools and the, and the skills like I got from the database, it was, um, I mean it's fantastic. I just loved it. So I built, um, a little database for our company, uh, keeping track on all the aircraft documents and, uh, the maintenance documents, uh, and, uh, the manuals and stuff that was all over the world and keeping track of them. And then I continued onwards in, Eh, for a couple years later I went on to flight operations and, and started to implement a digital occurrence reporting system and, uh, communication and Lotus Note. And then we had SharePoint 2010 and, and it went on and on. And all of a sudden I said to myself, maybe, maybe I should go back to school. So I asked my husband, can I go back to school? And he said, yeah, why not? And then I found this, um, it was a two year education where we had a lot of practice as well. And the tool was SharePoint, but it was SharePoint development. And then I fell in love with the product and I couldn't stop myself from work with for it. So after the school I went to, uh, uh, I got a job at Johann Husman. It's his place. Um, there, then later on I went onwards to consulting business and that's where I am now. 

Heather:  Wow, that's so cool. It's always, I always love the sort of origin stories. Cause I was looking at yours Lise and I was like, did you get started working on a help desk? 

Lise:  Me? Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah. Wow. I mean I went from theater school when I went to high school or what do you call it when you're like 16 to 18 or something. Yup. Yeah. And then thought that was gonna work within that. And then, um, I went on to working in the university world and then someone discovered I was good at computers just like with Christina. And I ended up in the help desk for Volvo for two years. I learned, you know, how to ping a printer and re reboot it through, all sorts of, you know, excel formula stuffs. And they had Lotus Notes, I, I actually studied and become a Lotus Notes developer. So I ended up building their intranet on that. And then, uh, I heard about this product called SharePoint and my boss said, you need to, you need to find out what that is. And I'm like, okie dokie. So I went to Stockholm and had the training at Jurgen Huisman again. His name. His name is famous here in Sweden. Yeah. And then I went on the training there and since then I've not looked back. I've quit. I change religion from notes to, to SharePoint. 

Heather:  That happens. Sometimes you convert, you know? That's awesome. 

Lise:  So, Yeah. That's the story. 

Heather:  Yeah. And I, you worked at for Carlsberg. Yeah. You both have had such interesting, that's so cool. How was that? 

Lise:  Oh my God. To hear my boss say let's go to the kitchen and a have beer and cookies. I was like, what? It's work. Everybody just ran to the kitchen. So yeah, we had free beer and fantastic workplace. I mean excellent developers there at Carlsberg, yeah, the SharePoint people who was quite a big team, were like 11 people or something. And the funny thing is I met some of them ESPC now in Copenhagen, of course they were there. I was so happy to see them. 

Heather:  Oh, that's so awesome. Very cool. Yeah. I, I've been through the Carlsberg experience, uh, in Copenhagen. That was super cool and yeah, it's nice. My first trip there was, I think it was in 2004 and, uh, we were producing the first road show in Europe and so we did a five city tour. Uh, it was London, Amsterdam, Copenhagen, um, Madrid and Frankfurt. So that was my first trip there. Oh yeah, it was amazing. And, uh, Copenhagen, I mean, Copenhagen and Stockholm are such walking cities, you know, it's like, I love that you can just, you know, plop yourself somewhere and just walk around and see beautiful things everywhere you look. It's ridiculous. So, yeah, it's a lot of fun. I'm sure. So, yeah. 

Christina:  So, what time of the year were you there? 

Heather:  Uh, I've been in Copenhagen in April, I've been in Copenhagen in November. I've been to Copenhagen like five times actually. So, um,. 

Christina:  it's a favorite city. 

Heather:  Yeah, it's a good one. So I think for me it's been actually spring and winter, um, have been the times that I've been there. And then Stockholm was a kind of fall, I guess that was fall, winter. Um, yeah. Yeah, I know I have to get over there in the summertime. 

Lise:  It's Beautiful. 

Heather:  Yeah, absolutely. Um, so, uh, I think, you know, it's, I, I was in looking at all of this stuff, I was like, we're kind of, we're in, we're same, similar age. Um, as far as like where we came up in the world when we're, you know, actually talking about like Lotus Notes and printing pin, uh, pinging printers and all that sort of thing. Um, I guess you sort of being, you know, all of us gals in technology, um, how have you seen things sort of progress or change just in technology in general or things that you've noticed about either women in technology as well? Um, kind of over the years and like starting up in Sweden, were you encouraged to get into tech? It sounds like you both were at a certain point, but was, you know, as is, is that, I just asked you like 14 questions, sorry, but, um, whoops. You can handle it. Just this, what do you, what do you think about sort of the changes that’ve happened since you started and maybe, uh, Christina, maybe you start. 

Christina:  Uh, yeah. Well, I think, um, I think it was quite easy to get into, uh, the tech in Sweden when I started because it was a big demand and, and the companies wanted to employ girls, really, ladies. And also when I, when I was in the technical department at the airline, uh, I mean, being the only girl there, it was also fantastic. Of course. So I, I've always had like an equal, uh, feeling of equality. But of course, I didn't know how much the guys were earning at the end of the day, but, uh, but everybody was treating me really, really like an equal. So I have, I have a really good experience. 

Heather:  Yeah. How about you Lise? 

Lise:  I feel the same. You know, I started in the IT business in 1997 and uh, I always felt the guys have felt it was so cool that a guy, uh, girl, I was talking to myself as a guy. That a girl came into this guy dominated like business. I thought, Eh, they really appreciated that. I have never felt like outside or that I've been treated different never, but it's like this with salaries. I'm still not sure that they are equal yet, but I mean Sweden I think has been quite far in this equal thinking quite long. And uh, but still of course there are, there are things that still aren’t as good as we could wish. But I mean I've never felt anyone looking down on me cause I'm a girl. It's like the opposite. They have like always encouraged and they think it's cool that I'm interested in this and I, I've been working really close with IT pearls, infrastructure and I love all that. I'm so happy to have my background with all this technical stuff because that helps you get the bigger picture and it's easy for you to understand how you can deliver something when you get that whole picture. So I'm very glad to have been working closely to these technical teams and uh, always loved it and learned so much from it. So yeah, that's my take on it. Yeah, 

Heather:  I feel that way too. I mean, I've had, I've had many wonderful mentors and I have had great experiences in the tech world as well, you know, and I've always been treated very well and all of that. And the thing is, for me, the big thing, the big thing is the parity on salaries and pay, you know, it's like, you can treat me nice, but I want you to pay me nice too, you know? 

Heather:  Yes, exactly. And equal. 

Heather:  Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So, and I think a lot of the work that's being done around diversity, inclusion and, and gender equity and gender pay, gender equality, all of that, you know, is just lifting that conversation into a place where we're having that conversation more, which I think is great, you know, and as it should be. Right. So, yeah, that's a really good thing. Um, so you too work a lot. Um, I bet you’re both smiling and uh, you know, you're busy, you do a podcast, you've got all kinds of things going on. How do you, what do you like to do when you're not working or podcasting and you know, how do you, how do you stay balanced, you know? 

Lise:  Well, I, I go out. 

Christina:  Oh my God, we do have a life also. 

Lise:  No, but, Christina, come on. No, but I mean, I can only speak for myself and Christina and I go out and have fun a lot of times. I love hanging with her outside of work also, so we are good friends. But I mean, I want to go out. I love, culture, music. I go to lot of concerts and Stockholm is a fantastic city to have a life. If You want to have a life. It's full of clubs and it's like always something, concert going on. I went to the Ramstein the other day. That, that was an amazing concert. And even if you don't like maybe listen to the music anymore, it's like a fantastic experience to go to one of these huge concerts. So that's a big interest. And we went to see the Tarantino movie the other day, Christina and I and her husband. Have you seen it Heather? 

Heather:  I have not. No, I haven’t seen it yet. 

Christina:  Oh, you must. 

Lise:  It was really good. 

Christina:  Yeah. Just hang out and uh, I travel a lot, but not as much as you have Heather. I Follow you. You went to Sydney recently, weren't you? 

Heather:  I did, yeah. I was at a, the digital workplace conference for Debbie Ireland. It was lovely. I had a great time. 

Christina:  how long did, how long were you there for? 

Heather:  Um, I would say about it. I was about a week. Um, all told, yeah. 

Christina:  Isn’t that a huge, huge trip to take to. 

Heather:  It is a, it's a 15-hour flight from Los Angeles nonstop luckily. Yeah. So I just, you know, I should've watched that movie on the plane, but I don't think it was out yet. So, not yet. Yeah. I need to, I need to watch something a little bit lighter. I've been watching a lot of documentaries lately that have been making me angry and so I think I need something. 

Lise:  You need some entertainment. Something for entertainment. 

Heather:  Yes, for sure. For sure. Oh my goodness. And so, uh, so Malmo and what, where, where, where were you both born? So Lise, you're from? 

Lise:  Yeah, I'm from the south of Sweden. It's really a little bit higher up than Malmo, but around there ish. Yeah, 

Heather:  Right. Oh my goodness. Sweden is so cool. And it's like, but do, cause people are like, oh, does it, is it really sort of dark and all of that in the winter time? Like I haven’t been. 

Christina:  Yeah, it's really dark. And you know, in the north the sun never goes down. So you have to have those really, really black curtains. Otherwise you can't sleep. 

Heather:  That's wild. 

Christina:  That is wild, literally. Yes. But I also want to say, um, I'm working on a bucket list so I have things on my bucket list that I'm trying to, I know you have that too, but I, I really want, cause I heard you, your podcast where you were talking yourself, I think it was number 41 or something like that. Where you talked about the bucket list things. You did something in Los Angeles there. And I also have the same, you know, like things I need to tick off that I want to do before we go. So that's something to work on. 

Heather:  Yeah, absolutely. Spend the night, you know, in Sweden with the blackout curtains. 

Lise:  That's totally something. 

Heather:  Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. So what do you two have coming up, I mean, I know we talked about Prague, uh, are there some things that you are excited about that's coming up this fall that you're going to be doing? 

Christina:  Well, hopefully we will be podcasting in Ignite. Right, Lise? 

Lise:  At Ignite (deep intake of breath). 

Heather:  Right. Right. 

Lise:  We send application and, yeah. That'll be Lovely. Yeah. 

Heather:  Oh, good. Yeah. I think everybody's supposed to find out this week. Right? 

Lise:  Wow. Because I've never been to Ignite, I've only been to New York in US so it will be cool to go to Ignite, to a conference in the US. 

Heather:  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Listeners, yeah. A lot of you are familiar, but Microsoft Ignite is, uh, in, uh, Orlando, Florida. It's the first week of November. It's one of the largest technology shows that Microsoft puts on and IT pros, technical learning. There's podcasts. We do a whole diversity in tech extravaganza, tons of keynotes and all the different Microsoft technologies are featured there as well. So that's, that's the show that we're talking about. And um, yeah, that would be super cool. I hope you, I hope you get to podcast there. That would be amazing. And uh, Orlando in November is not bad. It's nice weather, you know, so, 

Christina:  okay, cool. I love it. I love the states. I used to live in Los Angeles. 

Heather:  Oh, where in Los Angeles? 

Christina:  At Westlake village, Thousand Oaks then Venice beach right next to the Sidewalk Cafe. 

Heather:  Get out of town. Really? 

Christina:  Muscle beach. Yeah. 

Heather:  Yeah. Oh my God. Well, you know, I live in Marina del Rey. 

Christina:  Oh, I love Marina del Rey. 

Heather:  Yeah. Yeah, I was, I'm, I'm in Venice all the time. The front of my building is Marina del Rey and the back of my building is Venice. It's so weird. Um, but yeah, I actually, I live very, uh, yeah. I, I love it. Oh, that's so fun. I had, I know exactly where you lived then. That's so cool. 

Christina:  I started as an au pair in Westlake village, Eh, I was guarding kids for a guy that decorated the Olympic Games in 1984. That was a long time ago. And then, uh, I moved out and was living together with four other girls cleaning houses and having just so much fun. And we just,. 

Lise:  That sounds amazing. 

Christina:  I want to go to LA too. 

Heather:  I know well, you have to come visit me, so yeah, that would be super fun. Yeah, I'm sure you had no fun living with four other girls in Los Angeles. Uh Huh. 

Christina:  Ohhh. 

Lise:  Sounds like boring. 

Heather:  I know. It sounds terrible. Never wanna do that. That is so funny. Yeah. That's awesome. Um, so, oh, go ahead. 

Christina:  Yeah, I just want to say I'm in between jobs right now. I quit my former job and it's a consultancy company, I'm joining another consultancy company in the beginning of September is, I'm quite in between jobs now, but I was so happy when I went in to see and I read information about this new company because you always talk about diversity, Heather and which I think is really interesting and they have an initiative relating to diversity and equality and uh, I was really happy to see this because they have a female network that wants to like highlight WITs like we all are WITs, women in tech. So this is very cool. So they want to rise awareness around this. So I look forward to starting this company and they are only like 400 people. So a bit more to grasp rather than the huge companies I've been to before. So I really look forward to starting this new position. 

Heather:  Congratulations. That's exciting. Yeah. 

Christina:  Thank you. Yeah. 

Heather:  Absolutely. Yeah, I love hearing about that. I was, um, the couple, was it two podcasts ago? Maybe when I, uh, uh, um, Alcia Loach from, uh, the UK, from London. She works for, um, HPE and was telling me all about their programs that they have. And really it's just exciting to see that, you know, we all need a place to get together, you know, and talk about certain things. And I love that, you know, it's, it's, there's, there's the women in tech stuff, you know, there's, and then there's diversity and inclusion in tech and, and then, you know, you're having more conversations also about wellness and mental health. You know? 

Lise:  Yes. Absolutely big focus on that. 

Heather:  Yeah. Yeah. You see that obviously in Sweden. Yeah? 

Lise:  yeah. Totally. Many people here, or like, I don't know what the proper word is, but you know, when you, they burn out, you know, and, yeah. And then the, we all seek to wellness and, uh, it's a lot of trend right now to go like, you know, on travel with the theme, you know, so yeah, you could do a yoga trip or you do like just a, uh, wellness of wellness trips as well. So I think that's a big trend in Sweden. 

Heather:  Yeah, yeah. I think it's starting to be a trend all over the world. I mean, here in LA, I mean, you can't look sideways and, you know, there's a yoga studio or you know, somebody is drinking a green drink or getting a, you know, coffee enema, or I don't know. Whatever, you know, but yeah,. 

Lise:  It's getting to be like that here. It's growing really large here. 

Christina:  I'm so hyper. I went down to a Santa Theresa in Eh, um, oh, I lost it in the Central America. Oh yeah, yeah. Costa Rica. 

Heather:  Costa Rica. I had to think for a second, she's talking about, Costa Rica. Yeah. Yeah. 

Christina:  And it was absolutely fantastic. It was like living on a dirt road and with a beautiful sea. And there were yoga studios everywhere and I took yoga and I was, there was this white curtains blowing in the wind and the sea. And I kept on looking at the watch, when is this done? When can I go out of the studio. And it was all set for being soft and nice and calm and yoga. And I was, my body was all stressed, wanted to get out of the studio. 

Heather:  I know we have a hard time slowing down, you know, and turning off our brains and it's so, self-care. I know that's a word right now. It's sort of a buzz word, but I just, it's so important, you know, like yeah. I'm about to go out to the desert for about 12 days myself. Um, and it's a bit self-care. It's a bit rough though as well, but it's definitely something um, I love and I'm very excited to go back. 

Lise:  That sounds so exciting. Can you tell a little bit just about that Heather? 

Heather:  Oh, but about Burning Man? Um, yeah, sure. Um, um, uh,. 

Lise:  I'm so curious about it, yeah. 

Heather:  Um, I, I went for like seven years, starting in 2004. And funnily enough, my friend Denise, who I worked with on the US partner team, that Microsoft was the one who got me the tickets. So, the reason I go to Burning Man is from a Microsoft friend, funnily enough. Um, yeah. And I gotta say that year and the years past that, um, I made some of the closest dearest friends that I have in my life. Um, and my friend Alison who, uh, lives in Chicago, she was like, you stop flying over me because like, you know, she goes, she's mad. She's like, you keep flying over me. And so yeah, she was like, you're coming. And I was like, okay. All right. All right. So I literally, my house is a disaster right now, getting ready for it to be honest. Um, but Burning Man is, um, it's an event out in the middle of the black rock desert. It's two hours north of Reno, Nevada. Um, and it's a prehistoric lake bed and a city is built out there for one week out of the year. Um, people have been out there for the last, you know, couple of like six to eight weeks or so, even longer, building the infrastructure. Um, it's been going on since 1996. Uh, it started in San Francisco when founder, Larry Harvey, um, burned a wooden man on the beach, um, and it kind, people gathered and, um, you know, burning the man can mean a lot of different things, you know, it's like,. 

Lise:  The "man". 

Heather:  Yeah. Um, and yeah, and it's grown and grown and, um, I haven't been in a while. My last one was 2012, I believe. What's crazy, I went and watched a documentary called Spark about Burning Man, which you can, it's on Amazon prime. Um, and that's the last year I went and I'm in the film, which is hilarious, like for a minute, my friend and I was like, oh my God. And I forgot, you know. Um, but yeah, but it's beautiful. Yeah. It's art. It's music. It's, um, the, there's, you know, 10 principles about, you know, radical, uh, uh, like radical self-expression and also, you know, decommodification and participating in a community. Um, leaving, no trace, taking, you know, you gotta take everything in and um, take everything out. And uh, it's my favorite week of the year and I haven't been in a while. And so, um, when we go back, uh, it's called going home, you know. Um, and so I'm very, very excited, um, to get back. 

Lise:  Sounds awesome. 

Heather:  Yeah. You know, when some people dress up in costumes and there's these big dance camps, you'd love it for all the clubs and the music. Like you both would love. 

Lise:  Yeah, I've heard about those. 

Heather:  Yeah, yeah, sure, sure. And I've seen many DJs like way before they were, you know, before the EDM craze went nuts. Like I was like, oh, that was Skrillex or oh that was whoever, you know, I know, I actually ended up, I watched Skrillex sitting in a camp chair with like a giant sleeping bag around me cause I was tired, but I wanted to hear it and I pulled a chair out and I sat and like literally then like six other people gathered around me in their chairs while everybody else was like dancing up front. And I was like, I was like, this is awesome. And they're like, yeah, we should start a fire. And I was like, we were just like, very funny. So, yeah. 

Lise:  You must make a lot of connections there, I guess? 

Heather:  Yeah, yeah, you do. Um, you know, it's been awhile since I've been, so when I went, there was no connection out to the outside world. Like there's no WIFI, there's no cell phones. So you're really truly off the grid, which I love about it. Yeah. And you know, like people talk about work but not, it's not, you know, it is networking. 

Lise:  Oh, I didn’t mean about work, I mean like social. 

Heather:  yeah, yeah, yeah. Completely. Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. And um, yeah, I mean I, I will get to see friends from all over the world, uh, when I go, you know, and that I only maybe even see at Burning Man or once, you know, like, you know, sort of like seeing you too, you know, we see each other, you know, at the European SharePoint conference. And so, yeah, I am, I'm so excited to go and, um, to do that. You two would love it. You should go sometime, you know? 

Lise:  Yeah, I will. Totally. I love adventure. Also. Always the things I don't know of. I love that. 

Heather:  Are you both, are you both PADI certified? Are you both scuba divers? 

Lise:  I am. 

Christina:  No, no. 

Lise:  I took it in the Indian Ocean actually. It was really cool. And I saw a shark there. This blacktip reef shark while we were diving was like so amazing. I'm like what I can’t believe how lucky I was to see that actually at the same time. 

Heather:  That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. 

Lise:  Do you have also PADI? 

Heather:  I do. I do. Yeah. I, yeah, I haven't been in a bit, but I, I learned in Maui in Hawaii, so, aw. 

Lise:  That's one of my bucket lists. 

Heather:  All right, well I know people there, so when you go, let me know. For sure. Yeah. Um, well I'm going to take us to our last question. Yeah, yeah. Okay, cool. So, um, I, as you know, I always ask people, and I'm interested in what and for, to share with our listeners, you know, what person or occurrence or something that sparked you that led you on the path you're on today. So if you wouldn't mind sharing love that, uh, Lise, I'll put you on the spot. Do you want to start? 

Lise:  Yeah. Okay. Sure. Well, for me, I don't think it has been a particular person. Uh, for me it has always been my own energy, my curiosity and also a lust for adventure and the drive. You know, I, I kind of do things first and then I think after what's happened there. So I, I'm not afraid to put myself in a little bit difficult situations and a few things excite me more than when I have no idea what's going to happen next. Like when I moved across the world to another part of the world and that was scary. Cool. And totally exciting in one and I mean, it turned out just fine. So I can't say. And then I meet people along the way who gives me a lot of energy, you know, Christina and all these lovely people I have around me. So they, they kind of give me a spark. But I think when it comes to the end of the day, it's like your own path, and your own energy that makes things happen. 

Heather:  Cool. Yeah. I love that. Fantastic. You're a spark. How about that? Ah,. 

Lise:  Thank you, you too. 

Heather:  Thank you. Christina, how about you Q? What's your spark? You're welcome, Hun. Yeah. 

Christina:  Um, I'm a little bit like Lise. It's not, just an occurrence or anybody in particular, but, um, I sort of change track every seven years, but it's not like, like a told myself to do it, but I've always changed track before I get a grumpy and then, yeah. And so. 

Lise:  that's a good thing. It is a good thing. 

Christina:  Yeah. And I dare to change track as well rather than to stay safe. I also, I think possibly it could be my energy that sort of gave me all these opportunities and uh, yeah. And I had just met some body, uh, like Lise for example when I was applying for a new job than I thought I said to myself, if we are getting along, I'll, I'll take the job. And, um, we were, so that's one person that I met and also my bosses I told you in, in the technical department who believed in me that I could do something else but pouring coffee or so, uh, uh, yeah. Yeah. 

Heather:  You're a spark too there. Okay. You know, I love it that you both looked inward towards yourselves for that. That's so, that's super cool. You know, like, we don't, we don't always do that, you know, I mean, we all are influenced by tons of people and we, you know what I mean? But we also like, uh, recognizing and celebrating yourself I think is really, really cool and really important. So thank you for that. That's, that's really, 

Lise:  Thank you. And that's what you're going to do at Burning Man, isn't it? A little bit like, 

Heather:  yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, there's a really, there's a famous 

Lise:  Sorry, I can't, I can stop talking about this Burning Man. I'm so fascinated by it. 

Heather:  That happens a lot. That does this a lot. 

Lise:  Heather, can you promise me to talk about this? Your experience there in some podcasts, moving on in the Mavens Do It Better. 

Heather:  I promise. Yes. 

Lise:  Cool, I look forward to the report. 

Heather:  Okay. Yes, I will. I will write up the report for sure. No, absolutely. Yeah, no, I think, I think we all need, Oh, I don't know, renewal, right. Where, you know, we doubt ourselves and we get down or something happens or whatever. And you know, it's like looking, I think you can look inward, you can look to other people and look to the like beautiful places like Costa Rica or whatever. Right. To reignite, reignite ourselves. Right. And, and I think it's about making choices to do that. Right. Because a lot of people just don't, and they sit, and I don't know, it's like, who wants to be sad and depressed all the time? I mean, you know, I get, I have my moments, right. We all do, but it's just, God, it's a, life is short, right? 

Christina:  Yeah. I believe of the inner power and being your own Goldsmith, you know? 

Heather:  Oh yeah. I love that. Wow. Yeah. I can talk to you too, for like another, like three hours. 

Christina:  I know. I don't want to stop talking actually. It's a great conversation. I'm like, I want to go, but you are welcome to our podcast also, Heather. 

Heather:  I would love swapsies. Yes, let's do it. I would love that. Yeah. I wish I was there so I could come meet you somewhere. But I think it's Kinda late at night for that, isn't it? 

Lise:  It's 12 o'clock in the night here now. 

Heather:  We've just reached the witching hour with you two. Hahaha. It's kind of perfect. 

Lise:  A lot of things can happen. 

Heather:  Yeah, I know. I know. There's a lot of trouble to be had with this trifecta of women. I think so. That's for sure. But anyway, well, cool. Well, I just wanted to say, uh, thank you both for, um, for us chasing each other to get this done. Yeah. And, and then also just your being awesome in what you bring to the world and being sparks and sharing a podcast with everybody. It's super cool. Really. 

Lise:  thank you so much for having us. It's been great to be on the show and I love your podcast too. So, I mean, I subscribed to it and you got to do it. Yeah. So thank you very much. 

Christina:  Thank you, Heather, and thank you for being such a lovely, uh, ambassador for us and the community. yeah, thank you so much, 

Heather:  You bet, thank you. I, I appreciate that. So you welcome and yay. So awesome. All right, well that was wonderful. Christina Gibson and Lise, Lise Rasmussen. I gave you a Lise, Lise, ha ha. From the WIT Girls podcast. And so do check out the WIT Girls podcast, subscribe and follow them on their fun Instagram. And this has been another Mavens Do It Better podcast and you can find us on all the usual suspect places on iTunes, on Spotify, on stitcher, and Google play. And here is to another beautiful day on this big blue spinning sphere. Thanks everybody. 

Episode 50: Tech Maven Sasja Beerendonk

Heather Newman:  Hello everyone. Here we are again for another episode of the Mavens Do It Better podcast where we interview extraordinary experts who bring a light to our world. I could not be more excited to have a colleague and friend on today, all the way from Amsterdam, not Amsterdam, Rotterdam. I almost messed that, up from Rotterdam, the Netherlands, Sasja Beerendonk, and maybe you should say your gorgeous name for everybody.

Sasja Beerendonk:  Hello everybody. I think you, you did it really well, but yeah, Sasja Beerendonk. Maybe a bit, a bit of slightly different accent.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. Awesome. Are you actually in, in Rotterdam today?

Sasja Beerendonk:  I am, yeah. I actually live in Rotterdam. Yeah.

Heather Newman:  Yep, that's right. Yes. So, so Sasja and I, funnily enough, did not meet there. Uh, we met in South Africa, so

Sasja Beerendonk:  We did. Yeah. We did. Where they, where they also speak sort of Dutch.

Heather Newman:  Yes, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, Sasja is, um, she's a digital innovation evangelist. Uh, she's an expert in user adoption and change management. So we know each other through the tech community and I got to see her speak in South Africa and I was blown away. Um, you are an amazing speaker. Truly. I was so,.

Sasja Beerendonk:  Thank you.

Heather Newman:  You're welcome. I was, I was so impressed. Yeah. Um, tell everybody a little bit about that session will ya? Um, that you gave in South Africa, cause it was super cool.

Sasja Beerendonk:  Sure. Um, yeah, I did, I did a session, um, in South Africa and uh, and folks were just sort of, uh, blown away that I would just come over for that. But, uh, it was, uh, it was a great, great SharePoint Saturday, I have to really say. One of the better ones I've been to so far. Um, yeah, but my session was, well of course everything is always around the topic of Office 365 having people use it more effectively. But this particular one was around, uh, co-authoring documents, um, using modern technology like Teams, OneDrive and also Office, um, features that a lot of people are just usually not aware of. So, um, what I tried to do there is showing people how you can, um, you know, get, get better at doing something, a process rather than, than doing a tool. So that's why it was a combination of tools and, and particularly changing behavior.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. I think that's what I liked most about it is that, you know, we often get into these technology discussions and it's about, you know, features and it's, um, about, you know, the technology. And what I loved about it, and I try to do this in my presentations as well, is really showing that human side, the behavioral side of looking into people how, how they actually use software with use cases. And I loved how you did that. Yeah. Um, and let's see. So, we, uh, so after we met, uh, and had that great experience in South Africa, thank you all to everyone who put on that SharePoint Saturday, um, we, uh, Sasja said, hey, you want to come to Rotterdam? And I was like, well, yes, I love the Netherlands so I would love to do that. And, and you work for a company called Silverside and so she invited me to come to an end user adoption workshop, um, where they went over their pace, uh, methodology. And I, I was blown away by that too. I mean, you just have such a neat way of sort of thinking through things. Will you tell everybody about Pace a little bit and what that's about. The workshop was amazing.

Sasja Beerendonk:  Sure. Well, thanks again and I was really so, so thrilled that you said yes I'll come and joined us and provided us with, you know, lots of, um, interaction and, and fun and, and feedback. Pace is the methodology we developed at Silverside for doing user adoption. And it's, it's, it's particularly linked to technology and aimed mostly at Office 365, but it's, it's really not so much about a specific technology that, you know, that's, that's all the, the, that the end results of things of course will show up things using things in Office 365, but it's a, it's basically a methodology. The acronyms, p a c e stands for prepare, activate, capitalize, and enhance, which is just four stages across time, that combines a combination of eight different streams, um, around particular, um, expertise that you need to combine together across those four stages to really, um, have people, uh, in, in an organization adopt new technology.

Sasja Beerendonk:  So, it's got, it's got all kinds of streams basically in entwined. None more important than the other. Um, but all equally important. Um, and, and the, and the, and also interdependent to each other. So for example, there's of course the technology to consider. There's communications to consider. Um, there's a, the, the project guidance to consider, but we also combine a lot of stuff around culture and behavior, in those, uh, in, in the model as a stream that all interacts together to, um, yeah, for that one result. Help people embrace new technology in an effective way.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. And you all, you've been at Silverside a long time now, so like about seven or eight years, maybe?

Sasja Beerendonk:  A little less. Five and a half. Yeah. But yeah, but good, but still quite a while. Yeah. We've, we've been doing this, this methodology for a while, um, mostly at our own clients and, um, and we felt it was time to make it more broadly available and also, uh, expand to, to train others in, um, in embracing that same methodology to be applied to their customers or, or even and customers that have their own change practitioners in house.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, absolutely. And it, and it marries so nicely with what Microsoft is putting out, you know, around user adoption. You know, I think, you know, the pillars or the, I guess acronyms may be just slightly different, but I think like as far as just sort of the phases, I definitely think that the, it marries and maps so nicely, you know, so that folks can, you know, continue to leverage what Microsoft is putting out, but also just what you have. It's just so, it seems so comprehensive to me, which is what I loved about it. We did this great game where we, um, took a little kind of poker chips or, you know, play money and we put it on this large grid to see where we would spend in the different sections. And it was so interactive, you know, everybody was out of their chairs and you know, discussing, you know, where you would spend on the different areas. I loved that piece of it. I love the interactivity of what you all bring to the table. Yeah.

Sasja Beerendonk:  Yeah. I love to do it. I really wanted to not just, just, you know, give people lots of information but really make it, make it as interactive and fun as possible. Cause it's a long day to be otherwise just learning new stuff. And I still, I think, it was still maybe pretty, pretty tough for some, maybe more than for others. Um, but yeah, you have to keep it fun and interactive.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, absolutely. That, and there were cards, like little flash cards for it, so yeah. It's really, yeah. So for those of you in the, in the technology space, um, the methodology is super cool and it'd be something to check out on their website and we'll make sure and put that in the show notes. But, uh, it's silverside.nl, is that right? Or is it.com?

Sasja Beerendonk:  It's both.

Heather Newman:  It's both. Okay. Yeah, I figured. Right on, that's great. Well, I'm gonna pitch around a bit. Um, so I know from your background, um, you know, I was a theater major turned, you know, into technology and, uh, you started out, uh, in history.

Sasja Beerendonk:  That's correct. Yeah.

Heather Newman:  Talk about that. Talk about your humble beginnings. How did history merge into technology for you?

Sasja Beerendonk:  It may not sound very logical at first, although I do see a lot of trainers and people in the more, in the, what they tend to call the softer sciences. They tend to come from, from all kinds of backgrounds, uh, and, and, and hardly ever from, from, uh, from computer technology, kind of, um, studies. Um, yeah, so I, I studied, um, to become a history teacher. I thought that's what I wanted. Um, and I finished it. Um, but there were really no jobs at the time when I finished studying for that field. I mean there was some jobs and it was like, you know, replacing somebody who was on pregnancy leave and then there would be 500 applicants and at the same time I'd already started during my studies and this was like, I can't even remember when it was like in the 90s. And, you know, computers, for young people listening, they may not understand this, but the Internet was new. We just had www, you know, I mean, we don't have that even anymore now, but that it became visual. That was a new thing.

Heather Newman:  Right, right. I, you and I are around the same age ish. So like I like I was looking at your history of your college. I was like, yeah, I remember doing about the same time. So yeah.

Sasja Beerendonk:  Yeah, I think so. Yes. So, it was all very new with, with IT and basically I saw great things happening with IT in the field of history as well. Like museums were trying to open up virtually and libraries were becoming available online, um, you know, all that sort of stuff. Archives. So, so I sort of enroll into, into that a little bit, trying to do my thesis around how to use IT for education. And I also did something with, with some schools in a, in a city called Delft, which is a rich historical city. With the, you know, with, uh, lots of places to visit. So we, we did things interactively building things online with the children around history. So I'm basically rolling to IT a little bit. And then when there were no jobs for history teaching, there were loads of job for training in IT. So that's how I sort of stumbled into it. But mind you, not the kind of training that I'm doing today. I mean, this was like teaching people Windows and PowerPoint and Word. They still probably should be teaching folks those things. But we're not.

Heather Newman:  Right. Yeah, I know. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean kind of the, it leads to sort of the, you know, you and, um, myself and Tracy van der Schyff, uh, talk a lot about digital literacy and PC literacy and your presentation I think really sort of touches on that of like, you know, she always, she always says, uh, about the Windows logo on the keyboard, that that's not just like a pretty button. You know, that, that actually does things, you know, and I do think that we, we make assumptions about, you know, people's just computer skills, you know, and most of the time we, we, we barely scratch the surface of sort of all the power that's there for us because we're so busy just trying to get the job done. That Like trying to take a moment to like get there is really tough. Yeah. And Yeah.

Sasja Beerendonk:  Yeah, absolutely. That's what I tend to choose to also joke about to people who come to my sessions that IT people think that other people love their computers and IT, but, but they don't. They, you know, they're not, they may not even hate it. It doesn't have to be like that, but they're not like, oh, wow, a computer and let's, let's try and find out things. It's a means to an end and they've got other things to do.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, all the time. Yeah. So when, so, you were looking for work, what was your first job in IT?

Sasja Beerendonk:  Um, well if you consider that training then that, that was my first job. Doing training in IT. Um, but then after that, doing that for a while, and then you had the whole, um, Internet bubble. So then the jobs became less in the, in the IT world actually. But, so, I didn't make the best bet, I guess. Um, no, but then, then I moved into, into a company, which was great, and I've been there for 10 years, E Office. Um, and, and there we really started working on user adoption. Um, so that, I would consider that to have been my really first job in IT was an IT company. Um, but I, I was specializing in user adoption and that was in the days that hardly any other organization was doing, it was a very new, new, new field. The only work person I knew who was doing something around user adoption was Michael Sampson who wrote about it.

Heather Newman:  Right. Yes. And you gave us copies of his books and I, I had heard that name before, but that's, yeah, I mean, he's kind of the Grandfather of that, not that he's a grandfather, but maybe he is.

Sasja Beerendonk:  Yes. I think he is. Sorry, Michael, if you're not.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. Right. But the grandfather of end user adoption for sure. You know, I mean, yeah, he was definitely the first person that was, that was, uh, doing all of that stuff. And, yeah. And, and, and uh, yeah, it's interesting that, you know, after so many years of just sort of like, let's renew licenses that we've sort of gotten to a place where it's like, no, actually let's not just renew licenses or add seats, but let's actually really make sure that we're productive and that you're, you're not wasting money by bringing in a piece of software and then not teaching people how to use it. That's I, I find that so exciting as well. You know, I think it's a really good thing.

Sasja Beerendonk:  Absolutely. And I think, I think, um, you know, the last year or two we've really seen an uptake in that where, where Microsoft is really understanding it, that that's what it's all about and it's, it's a very mature world in, in the meantime, in the field of user adoption. Yeah, that's right.

Heather Newman:  So, I know you're a busy person in, you know, running around speaking and you know, dealing with clients and you know, you have a life and all of that. How do you, you live in such a beautiful place and thank you again for the invitation. It was so nice to be there. Rotterdam, if you haven't been, it's just, it's, you know, it's surrounded by water and it's just boats and great places to eat and all that. How, how do you, you know, unplug and, uh, find some balance? What's, what's your, what's your ways of that?

Sasja Beerendonk:  Yeah, I'm kind of a, a run or stop kind of girl. So there's sort of no, no in between, for me. And so I either run or I'm completely still and flat, but uh, yeah. So, so what, what I do like a lot is, uh, is, is, is going outside with my dog. So that's the best unwinding that, that you can have because, um, you know, you just, you're just not dealing with anything else when you're just walking outside and, and making a connection. So for me, that definitely, yeah. Going out with (dog's name) in the outdoors.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. And where did you grow up?

Sasja Beerendonk:  I grew up literally under this smoke of Schiphol airport, in a place. I grew up in Hoofddorp. So whenever you, whenever you've landed in Schiphol anybody, basically they say Amsterdam Airport, but it really is Hoofddorp airport, when it's geographically located. So yeah, that's, that's a tiny place, um, where my mom also grew up and my dad grew up in a village next door. Um, so yeah, small village. Um, but, but still, you know, it's not, not far away in it was a densely populated area. Close to, to Amsterdam. Yeah.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. I think Schiphol is a small, a small town. Yeah. I think Schiphol is probably one of the cleanest airports I've ever been to in my life. Like it's so well signed and it's such a nice place. And I, uh, for a while when I was living in Seattle, Continental Airlines, uh, that does not exist anymore, had this great flight from Seattle to Amsterdam. And so I, uh, seemed to, whenever I was coming over to Europe for Microsoft events, I was, uh, it was just easier for me to always stop in Amsterdam and, and then go on. And so I think out of all the cities in Europe, I think I have been to Amsterdam the most because I always did at least like a day or two in out to get sort of like acclimated on the end of every trip.

Sasja Beerendonk:  Okay. So then you actually also go into Amsterdam.

Heather Newman:  Yes. Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So I spoke.

Sasja Beerendonk:  Not just the airport.

Heather Newman:  Correct. Yeah. I would go in and either stay with friends or whatever. It's just such a rich, beautiful place. I think I saw the Banksy exhibit the last time I was there. Which was super cool. Um, yeah. Do you, are you, are you a, an art person or, or theater and music and all of that stuff? Is that something that's in your wheel house in Rotterdam?

Sasja Beerendonk:  I wouldn't say I'm a big art person. Um, um, I do like, uh, I do like music, I mean who doesn't like music. Um, and I, I used to play guitar and I play a little bit of drums. I don't do that too much, but, uh, but I, I do like making music for sure. Yeah.

Heather Newman:  That's awesome. Yeah. And you know, I, we, uh, we've sort of talked a bit about, you know, I, as you know, I speak and talk a lot about the diversity and inclusion and, uh, I know that, uh, you've been, we've had conversations about that and I was curious how you feel about sort of in Europe, the state of diversity and inclusion today, you know, of what you're seeing and any trends that are coming out or, um, anything that you feel is like, kind of top of mind in that area.

Sasja Beerendonk:  Yeah. I'm not sure if I can speak for the whole of Europe. Let's try the Netherlands.

Heather Newman:  Fine, fine, fine, the Netherlands. Okay, I was reaching a little far, but you're an authority.

Sasja Beerendonk:  It's funny because, um, if you look at any American based company for any, um, um, job ad or, um, events, this is a topic, you know, um, even in job ads, it says that they're, they're, they're inclusive. Um, and it, I don't think, I mean, I don't think most Dutch people actually even know the term very well unless they maybe deal with, with America. Um, it, it's not a, it's not a thing that is so, um, as a, as a concept is on top of mind. Um, I mean it may be that the more of the what it actually is about of course is happening, but it's not so much of a topic as it is, I think in America. We're probably going to be, you know, we're probably just lagging behind, which, which often is the case with these things. These, these trends tend to come and then, and we'll probably catch on in a few years where it's becoming more, but you definitely would not see a Dutch company, uh, jobs, ad post, anything like that. That's not to say we are completely not digitally, not inclusive, but it's not on, you know, there's not screaming about it. And I also think that American women are more into careers than it is the case in the Netherlands. I think we're also lagging behind there.

Heather Newman:  Hmm. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it depends. It's, it's all very, I mean, I asked you about Europe, which I think is silly, so sorry, but like, but, but it is, you know, it's like, it's like your own neighborhood or your own businesses or your own friends. Is where you kind of see all of those things happen. So thanks that view into that. Um, I know you're also, you're, you are a writer and author as well. What, what, what, where can people find you? Do you have a blog and, or are you, do you have other books in there? I know that you produce content as well.

Sasja Beerendonk:  Yeah, I do. Well, you can find things of course, through my social media channels on Twitter or LinkedIn. Yeah. Um, um, and, and I've got a blog, um, on, on, on the silverside.com website that you can find lots of eBooks and blogs. Um, I don't actually have a personal one. I tried it for a while and then, and then I stopped because it was just, you know, posting double things. So yeah, most of them are probably just on the, on the Silverside website. Yeah. And I do love, um, I'm creating content in that way as well and trying to engage people and trying to, to find a different angle, maybe to things then what others may be doing.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, absolutely. And where, um, where are you speaking? Coming up or, or you, are you hosting more workshops or what, what's sort of the future look like for you in the next bit?

Sasja Beerendonk:  Yeah, so the, the future is I'm going to make some trips. I'm going to be in Germany in October, November. I've got, um, what Paris coming up in December. One Workplace. Uh, I think I'll be in Barcelona in September. So there is a few things that, um, they are coming up.

Heather Newman:  How about vacation? Are we taking any vacation?

Sasja Beerendonk:  Ha! I just had a week and a half off. But I have actually been painting my house so I had to, so I didn't go away.

Heather Newman:  Right. You did a staycation or a work staycation. Huh?

Sasja Beerendonk:  I did. Yeah, I did. So, but I had some help and it was, it was, it was fun, but it was very, it was very due, so yeah. So it had to be renewed and, I don't mind it. I mean, so yeah. So I had a week and a half off and I think I spent four days painting.

Heather Newman:  The rest with the dog outside. Yeah.

Sasja Beerendonk:  The rest with the dog outside. Correct. Yes.

Heather Newman:  That is awesome. Yeah. And I'm excited, so Sasja and I were talking and uh, so she, uh, very generously invited me to co-speak with her at, uh, the, the Paris event, the Modern Workplace event in Paris in December.

Sasja Beerendonk:  Yup.

Heather Newman:  We're going to work on that. What's the name of our session? How about that?

Sasja Beerendonk:  So maybe when I get, now they think that I'm all in charge of something, people are going to get wrong idea. Um, so what happened here was I had a session accepted and you were like, yeah, and I was supposed to submit something, but I wasn't in time. So that's why I said, just join my session. And we'll just change it and make it to uh, yeah, it is both of ours.

Heather Newman:  Yes. Okay. Fair enough.

Sasja Beerendonk:  But it's called Facebook Never Needed Adoption - Why Does Office 365? So, yeah, so we need to, um, we need to see, um, you know what you have to say about that.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. Well, well, you know, I love, yeah, I know. And I, I had seen, I had looked up the topics so I didn't not know exactly, but I wanted you to say it cause I don't, I didn't have it in front of me, but, um, but yeah, I love that. I mean it's kind of, um, Facebook didn't need adoption. You know, Google has no, you know, instructions on how to use it as a search engine. And I, I do love that. I think, um, it'll be fun to talk about sort of, you know, how it's kind of like how people put things out into the world, you know?

Sasja Beerendonk:  And what I find interesting is, um, because the title is the way I normally do the session. I mean, we can do, of course whatever we want it to be, but the way I normally do the session, it's also a bit of a double title because does Facebook really not need adoption is also, you know, you can also question that. People may not always be using it wisely, but also I think these, these public consumer based tools, they do adoption, but they call it marketing.

Heather Newman:  Yes, we do. I'm speaking with my, my, my CMO hat on. Yeah, no, that's absolutely true. I mean, I feel like, you know, it's, it's, uh, it's cloaked, right? Instead of calling it end user adoption, you, um, you know, put together a content marketing plan and ads and all of that stuff and get people, I think it's more, it's about excitement of what you can do with something. Right?

Sasja Beerendonk:  Yeah. That's a big part of it. And then, and that marketing part, which we tend to then call the communication part in adoption, but that's really also partly, it's also marketing to the employees, um, you know, setting certain, certain stage and certain mindset and certain need. Yeah. So it's definitely, there's definitely, um, you know, similar aspects to it. And I also think in marketing, especially in online tools, a lot of them are of course brilliant, especially when you, when you look at mobile apps. They're actually brilliant at behavioral science, which is also a big aspect of user adoption. You know, there's many things that I see the same there because Facebook is making me addicted, um, by having these badges that I see others, that's again something new. And I'm, I'm wanting to scroll down the newsfeed and see if there's anything more new. So it's, it's, that's all based on behavioral science. And I try to do that also in the user adoption to try and see how can you make people want to use it.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I, you know, uh, I had, uh, a customer recently, um, because when we deploy Content Panda out to customers, we will, you know, we obviously train them, but you know, it's, it's pretty much you click the panda, you know, it's really, it's kind of one or two clicks, right? To get that in context help and training and, um, but you know, some people are like, why is there a panda on my screen? You know what I mean? Like, like a panda all of a sudden it shows up and they're like, what the heck is that right? So, you know, there is a bit of, you know, rollout that needs to happen with anything, right. A bit. I mean, you could also just roll it out and have somebody click it and be like, oh, that's super cool, but that doesn't necessarily drive that usage and adoption that you want. I do find that some of the most innovative ideas around that often come from our clients. You know, where they'll all of a sudden be like, hey, we, we just, you know, we did a campaign and I'll often, um, work with folks in or if, if they want to, you know, we have all those templates and stuff up on our site, but like, people will create their own videos, you know, and share them with us and be like, hey, we created this, you know, around the panda and it's this or that. And like some of that, it's the, it's like the fun stuff, it seems to me. Or the gamification or the, that group think of like, I want to be included in this, that's some of that behavioral stuff. I mean, do you find that, you know, when you're going through the Pace methodology and stuff that like that people will sort of take it and then run with it and, and do they, do they then share with you like some of those fun ideas that they, that they come up with?

Sasja Beerendonk:  Yeah, they do. Yeah. Through the workshop, the Pace workshop, but also through sometimes through presentations. People tend to sometimes really get completely blown away with certain concepts on a slide and then there'll be saying like, oh yeah, I've been using it at my client, or clients saying that , yeah, no, I'm using, I'm using it, but I'm mentioning you, that it's yours. So yeah, people tend to run away with things and then, and then, you know, I get, get excited about it and, and start using it and that's fun.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I love that and I really love that you all as a company decided to share, you know what I mean? Like I think that there's all kinds of, I guess what I would say coopetition you know, where we're all, you know, working in a similar space, but I love that about you all inviting people who do this do similar things or, or who have products that are in the similar ilk so that we can all share and help each other and use best practices. I really, kudos to you all for doing that.

Sasja Beerendonk:  Thank you.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, you're welcome. It's, it's sort of, I, I feel that way, you know, about like adopt and embrace with Daryl Webster and other folks, you know, um, in the, in the space who are just so willing, like we all talk to each other, you know, that's what I like about it. And it's like, oh, well that's super cool. I'm going to bring that in. And, and often, you know, like we give shout outs to each other too, which I think is super cool too. It's like we're all in this together, you know?

Sasja Beerendonk:  Yeah, it is. Yeah. Yes, that's what I meant with it's so mature, this field, um, within the technology sectors and that's, so there's so many great people now, you know, wanting to talk about this and share and that's just making it, it's just making it go to a higher level. So that's cool.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. Absolutely. No, I really like that too. So, yeah, again, big thank you. It was, I really enjoyed my time there and I got to stay in that beautiful hotel that, uh, the, the old Canard building. That was amazing too. I was like, this is one of the coolest hotels I've ever stayed in.

Sasja Beerendonk:  Yeah. It is a cool hotel. Hotel New York, which is a very old building where the ships used to go sail to America for all the people who are seeking new dreams. So that's quite panicle.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, it was a, it had a really good energy. I really liked that place, so that was cool. Um, so you know, for you, uh, there's always I think a spark or something that led you to where you are, be it a person or a situation or something. And I always love to know kind of what, what maybe one, I know it's hard to pinpoint one, but one maybe spark that kind of led you to where you are today, that something you would share with our audience.

Sasja Beerendonk:  Wow. Yeah. That's, that's, I was dreading this question. One spark that where you are today. There's, of course, many, many, many of these moments in your life. Like turning moments.

Heather Newman:  Yes. You can share more than one, it's all good.

Sasja Beerendonk:  We mentioned it before, but I think when I read the user adoption strategies by Michael Samson was definitely a defining moment in my life. So, when it comes to my work field, having read that book that was, it was just sort of finally someone is putting some thought in this and, you know, it's, it's, it's based on research and um, it seems to make sense. It really was very new at the time. Yeah. And that was a turning moment for me, reading that and then starting to apply whatever he wrote into, uh, into my work and it's definitely, it's definitely helped me to get where I am today.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, absolutely. How about another moment, like a non-work one? Anything come to mind?

Sasja Beerendonk:  A non-work one. Well, you know, it may sound silly to folks who are not into dogs, but, but definitely Logic coming into my life has been a defining, uh, point. So, my dog. Um, because, um, she, she's taught me so much about being patient and about being sensitive and cause it's, it's a very particular dog. She's got lots of fears and since she, you know, she's, she's, uh, she's, she's, she hasn't had a, a steady start. Um, so, you know, we adopted her. Um, but um, yeah, so, so she taught me, she's basically everything that I am not so, um, except for slim and beautiful of course.

Heather Newman:  You are, all of those.

Sasja Beerendonk:  Definitely know what I am. She, she, she really taught me a lot and it's ended up, and the nice thing is, of course, she didn't want to teach me. Um, you know, it wasn't a conscious thing, but it's, it's how you have to really go down. So just to give you an example, she's, she's very much afraid of things and her trust can be very easily broken. So there were times where it was difficult and getting her back on the leash again. She listens perfectly, but when there's like a little tension or she's not sure what is the meaning of something, then you may not be able to get her back on the leash. And I remember this one moment, so when we're talking about defining moments where I was remembered there's one moment she, and again, she didn't want to, and I remember thinking to myself, okay, Sasja, just let it go. Right. She's not coming now. Just let it go. And the moment I decided that for myself and I took a load off, she came down next to me, sat down and I could put her on the leash. It's, you know, the moment that you don't want it, that's when it happens. When you can let go and just be with the moment.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. That is sage advice. And it applies to so many things. And I think, I know I have a dog as well who's, um, who was not living with me right now, but, um, and I've had two, well actually I've had three dogs in my life and yeah, they're huge teachers, you know, and, and they're, so like I, I would, I would put a pivotal moment for me of, of different moments with the dogs I've had too, you know, for sure. And I love that letting go, cause man, we hold on to things, you know, we just, you know, sometimes we have a stranglehold, so much on so many different aspects of our life. And sometimes when you do let go it, it's like, oh, wait a minute, there's the answer or there's the thing. That is awesome. Oh my goodness. Those are, those are awesome. Wow, very cool. Um, Gosh, well, so you and I are gonna see each other definitely in December in Paris, which I'm super excited about. And, uh, yeah, so folks we'll have a session there. So, uh, come see us. Uh, pretty please. Um, well, uh, do you, do you speak French? I don't speak French.

Sasja Beerendonk:  Not, no, not much. I mean I can probably get by ordering something in a restaurant and that's about it.

Heather Newman:  Me as well. Okay. All right. Fair enough. You know what's so funny, I've been playing with a pen and it, it is the, it is actually the new, the Hotel New York pen and I didn't even realize that. That's so funny.

Sasja Beerendonk:  Oh really?

Heather Newman:  Yeah, totally. I was writing and I was like, oh wait a minute. Look at that. That's hilarious. That's awesome. Well, cool. Well I just appreciate your time and your friendship and your colleague-ship and um, it's, it's such a delight to talk to you and share some of who you are with our listeners. I appreciate you coming on today.

Sasja Beerendonk:  And I want to thank you for having me and I think it's a, it's a great job that you're doing with the podcast. I've listened to several and it's always a lot of fun and uh, it, it's awesome.

Heather Newman:  Thank you.

Sasja Beerendonk:  Yeah, thanks.

Heather Newman:  I appreciate that. Okay, well Sasja Beerendonk. Yay.

Sasja Beerendonk:  There you go. Yay!

Heather Newman:  I had to say it with a little oomph, so there we go. So thanks again so much for being on.

Sasja Beerendonk:  Thank you, Heather.

Heather Newman:  Absolutely. Everyone that has been another episode of the Mavens Do It Better podcast. You can find us on iTunes, on Stitcher, on Spotify, and on the Mavens Do It Better website. And uh, here is to another beautiful day on this big blue spinning sphere. Thanks everyone.

 

Episode 49: Poetry Maven Carron Little

Heather Newman:  Hello everyone. Here we are again for another episode of the Mavens Do It Better podcast where we interview extraordinary experts that bring a light to our world. I could not be more excited to have a wonderful, wonderful artist on today. Carron Little and she came to me from dear friend Alison Gerlach out of Chicago. And, so we've been sort of chasing each other a little bit and I'm so excited to, you and I are busy women, so we're trying to get on a podcast and hello and thank you for coming on today. 

Carron Little:  Well, thank you for inviting me, Heather. Thank you so much. 

Heather Newman:  Absolutely. So you know, I know that, you know, Alison works, you know, in the Chicago cultural world and you do as well and you know, you're an artist in your own right and an educator and all of that. And how did you and Allison meet? I think that'd be fun for folks to know. 

Carron Little:  Yeah. So, actually it was at a conference that the Department of Cultural Affairs organized called Public Heart. And we were both attendees. But I had, I'd heard of her through a mutual friend of mine and, and the work that she's doing, so I was already familiar and I think, you know, because we both work in public performance as well, you know, there was, uh, a synchronicity there already in terms of the work that we're doing and our philosophies as well. So yeah, that was the, the spark to the beginning of the friendship. 

Heather Newman:  That's wonderful. Yeah. She's one of my dearest friends in the whole world and we're always saying, oh my goodness, you need to meet this person or have them on your podcast and all of that. We do a lot of sharing of goodness. So it's always, a big shout out to you, sweetheart. Yay. And you're the founder of Out of Site Chicago. Will you talk about that a little bit? I know that's your company. 

Carron Little:  Yeah. So, I started Out of Site and 2011 as a means of, um, really taking culture, uh, to the streets and, um, bringing, taking culture out of the museums and into public space and, and engaging the public and dialogue, in critical discourse. So we create, we prioritize interactive public performances because we're interested in like really facilitating a direct conversation with the public and people that wouldn't normally enter a museum context and really thinking about. And, and the other thing that I did was also to think about creating a funding structure, uh, to support artists in their practice. Because at that moment in time, a lot of performance artists in the city were working for free and not feeling, um, very supported. So, so it was also to create a support structure and then as part of that funding structure to also invite international artists so we could really build the performance dialogue, um, beyond the city and create opportunities for local artits and, um, facilitate more diverse conversations about practice with relationship to performance. And, um, yeah, really thinking about how public, you're breaking. I mean, what's quite unique about Out of Site is the methodology that I've used to facilitate the public performances. So we have a steward team who are in place to facilitate a critical discourse with the public. And, um, there, there as a support between, like a mediator, between the artist and the public because often, you know, when you come across performance art, it's like this weirdest thing happening on the streets. Um, so, you know, we really wanted rather than just confront people with the shock of what they are seeing, we really wanted to create space where they would unpack it and uh, create, you know, create a conversation to go deeper, um, into the ideas that the artist is thinking about and investigating. 

Heather Newman:  Right. That's great. I mean, so you're, you've created a methodology and I love it that you're advocating for, you know, fair wages and, and that's part of, you know, you're, you work in sort of public art policy as well in the city of Chicago as well. 

Carron Little:  Yeah. Yeah. So I sit on, I was invited on to the arts committee for Wicker Park Bucktown in 2010. And I've really, you know, from the get-go, I, um, created policies, um, and advocated for all the money to go directly to artists. Prior to that, often the money that is allocated to the arts and the neighborhoods was going to like one consulting firm. And, um, so we, uh, so I really like, we started creating RFPs so people knew we had the money. You know, so really putting in the basic infrastructure to make sure the artists knew about the opportunities and could apply for funding, but then also creating, um, minimum amounts. So, um, thinking about what does it cost for a muralist to, to live and produce the mural that might take two weeks or a month, you know, it's not just about paying for the materials. You've got to pay for the labor time and for their living expenses while they're doing the work. So really kind of, so I lobbied a lot in the early days, um, to create a minimum, um, in terms of our budgeting, uh, which, uh, we've raised over the years, I'm happy to say, cause that's an ongoing conversation about how we, how we kind of increase our wages with the rise in living standard. You know, and um, so and then also, and then when I was artist and resident for the cultural center, I thought, well, as artist and resident, I should, I could actually kind of write some policy. Although I was doing my work. I was like, oh, I could also like advocate for others so then I, one day I just happened to sit down and write this paper of all the policies that I'd created for the neighborhoods. And then quite, um, accidentally I went in to rehearse that evening at the cultural center and the deputy cultural commissioner said to me, ooh Caron, could I have a paper with all the policies you've written for Wicker Park? On my desk by tomorrow morning. And I was like, okay, actually I just wrote it today. I quickly went home after rehearsal, edited it and sent it over. And then they adopted those policies, you know, within the next, you know, within months. So, you know, I do think it's really important that artists sit on funding committees. I'm the only one sitting on our committee. And so often now I'm in the position where they'll look to me to actually decide how much something is funded. 

Heather Newman:  Yeah, I mean, yeah, even, you know, art is, I, uh, I was a theater major in Seattle, but I think, I think we talked about this or you know this from Alison, is I grew up outside of Chicago. And so when I was a teenager, I would, um, tell my parents I was going to go to the mall and I would drive into the city and I would go to the art institute and I would sit in the impressionist room and stare at that Paris Street, Rainy Day, beautiful painting and the Chagall Windows. And I, you know, like I wasn't, you know, back in the alley, I was at the art museum. Um, but I do think, you know, there's a, 

Carron Little:  My kind of woman. 

Heather Newman:  Yeah. There is a business to art, you know, and there's policy and all of it. And I do think I agree with you 100% that, you know, if we're not in positions to make the rules and make the, you know, policies, then that's left to other people's hands. And we know what happens sometimes when it's left to other people, you know. So I love that, you know, you're an artist, but you also obviously, you know, it's another gift that you bring to the world as an artist of the business of the art, right? Or the business of being an artist. And, and I'm sure in part of your education and teaching and all of that, that's something that goes along with writing poetry and doing, you know, performances and all of that. And that's, that's really cool that you found your way into that, you know. Even with like all the sudden somebody asks you, do you have it? And you're like, I wrote it today. That's amazing. 

Carron Little:  Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. You know, I am, I was either going to be a politician or, or an artist when I was growing up. And I think I was, you know, I was trained in public speaking when I was 10 years old, which was kind of crazy. And I think, you know, my parents, you know, really wanted me to go into politics in some form and, you know, but I was never happy with the didactic nature of politics. And then I saw that art was something and culture was something that could really kind of engage in this mutual conversation. It wasn't about converting, but it educated people, or it was, uh, a more, um, you know, gentle invitation to go deeper into ideas. And I think that's why I kind of decided to be an artist because I didn't want to go down the didactic road and be in the position where I was having to persuade people to agree with me. But I kind of believe, I do believe in the power of art to fundamentally change culture over time. You know, it is, um, it's a long road. 

Heather Newman:  Yeah, no, that's for sure. I mean, and we stand on the shoulders of many giants, you know, in those, in that change, in that revolution, in the, you know, hearts and minds of people. For sure. I want to, um, I want to ask you, you mentioned your parents and, you know, I can, first of all, I could listen to you talk for like a week done. I am an Anglophile of epic proportion and a will you talk about, um, where you're from? 

Carron Little:  So, it's a long story actually, but I'll try and keep it brief. I was born in North Carolina, believe it or not, to Scottish parents. My father was one of two people selected to take an exam and the person that got selected from Scotland would do their PhD at Duke University. So my father, um, was selected. He was a theologian. And, um, I popped out the day after my mum finished typing my dad's PhD. And so yeah, 

Heather Newman:  Like one does because all those, every marriage and partnership and relationship, right. It's all, you do it all together. That's super cool. Wow. Okay, neat. 

Carron Little:  And then, uh, we moved back to the UK, to Scotland and then, then from Scotland, we moved to Devin and then to the north of England. And then I got into Goldsmiths in London, so I went to London. . I've only met one other person who speaks exactly like me and she grew up in America, lived in Glasgow, and then lived in London. So, we've kind of done the same, but opposite. 

Heather Newman:  Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Well, cool. Yeah, I love, I love it. I was like, ahh. Alison was like, you're going to love her accent. You're going to like, I know, I know, I know, I know. I love it. Music to my ears. Um, and, and you know, you, uh, we were talking earlier before we jumped on recording and we were just starting to talk about, um, this really cool project that you're working on The Spare Rib and then some, some of the pieces of it. And I would love it if you would share with our listeners what that project is about. I think that would be great. I think they would love it. 

Carron Little:  Yeah. So, um, for quite a while I've been writing poetry inspired by interviews with the public and, um, so I'm currently working on a project called Spare Rib Revisited where I'm invited by different cities to, uh, visit and interview women between the ages of 20 to a hundred. And, and after interviewing the women, I write poetry inspired by the interviews. And you know, I think when, when you're working in the way in which I work, it's really, so whenever I arrange with a city to go and, uh, do Spare Rib Revisited, I always ask the hosting producers to organize a performance because it's really important that I first share, um, the personal stories and, and the poetry that comes out of those conversations and that, um, future participants, um, actually get to see how I share people's personal stories and the kind of combination of how that transforms into poetry because it, it is, um, it's kind of, it's unique and it does take, each poem is constructed in its own lyrical form. So 

Heather Newman:  Yeah, I mean, you're writing something based on, um, a person's life and their story. That makes tons of sense. Right. So that's so cool. And, um, you had recited a poem, uh, to me earlier and I was wondering if you would talk about that experience and that poem a little bit and maybe give it to us for our listeners to hear too. I think that would be amazing if you would. Yeah. 

Carron Little:  Yeah, sure. So this poem was written for our Sylvia Hickens and Sylvia, uh, designed the pattern for the pink pussy hats that went viral for the woman's marches. And she's a long term activist and she's really focused on the health of women's bodies. And, um, she's a poet and writer. And part of this poem talks about a performance that she organized, um, to protest the potential closure of the only hospital that is dedicated to women, uh, that is in Liverpool. And it's the only woman's hospital in the whole UK. And Margaret Thatcher, um, tried to close the hospital in the 1980s. And Sylvia Hickens was really important in terms of, she organized the protest to keep that open. And, um, and she's also, she was also part of, um, so both Reagan and Thatcher had these lists and I know they existed under McCarthy as well, of people that were, um, you know, on the far left or radical. So Sylvia Hickens was also on Thatcher's list. Uh, so you know, it was, I think a Tony Blair, uh, revealed all the names on that list in the early two-thousands. But, um, this, this poem is for Sylvia Hickens and it's called The Long Road. 

Carron Little:  If my body were bound between two sleeves of book jacket, what would it see? Would it perform out of the page or would it remain stitched between the sleeves hoping to reach persparity stamped in different languages? If my body were you, what would you see? Would you dance on army tankers in the fresh morning dew or chant harmonies at Greenham Common and write dreams on pillow slips. Would you look the policeman in the eye who defied humanity as he stabbed me in the left shoulder with a sharp metal fork? Would your body be a witness to history stitched with the scars, marking the deep, sending viral news stories across media channels? Would your body listen to that visible spectacle wearing an orange jacket, flashing alarm bells marking the targets? Would your body bear witness to the violence of history past down the line of a ring tone written in Morse code the war won the war lost. It's all the same when the bombs drop. Killing our children, destroying our homes. Lives lost in the wreckage. Would your body, listen to the ghosts in this city. Would your body listen to the needs of this city. Walking and numbers, performing in silence. Wearing white doctor's coats, counting hospital beds. What does your body need? What does it need? Stitched between pages and words, if not liberty, a life dedicated to tomorrow. Tell me, what does that look like? Tell me. Speak it, tell me. Speak it 

Heather Newman:  you made me cry again. 

Carron Little:  Oh, that's really moving, thank you. 

Heather Newman:  Oh, thank you. Oh my goodness. It's like a, it's so drippy and dreamy of, of, of and so powerful. And then liberty. Oh my goodness. Okay. Um, wow. 

Carron Little:  Yeah. Well I think really I was really thinking about, um, you know, how writing is also a form of liberty. And I listened to, I listened to the Women's Hour daily podcast on the BBC and, um, they were talking about, how we're not going to reach pier equality until 2167. So I was like, oh gosh. A lot of work to do. 

Heather Newman:  Yeah. Wow. That's, that's too far off. I mean it's always been too far off, I guess, you know, but, um, wow. Yeah. I, and your process around this and these, so you sit down with someone and you have an interview and you speak with them and then you create the poem. Yes. 

Carron Little:  Yeah. So I, um, I've developed a process. I've noticed that if I take written notes, um, I actually am able to formulate the structure of the poem. It starts to kind of build in my head. I mean, some take, you know, some take days to write, I mean, every poem takes a while to edit, you know, and they go through and you performing the pieces actually kind of helps refine. That piece was actually a lot longer. And through performance workshops, I've kind of trimmed it down. But, um, yeah, there's, um, you know, definitely writing notes during the interview helps me formulate the structure of the poem. And then because there's this direct relationship between the hands and the brain. I think Albrecht Durer talks about drawing being linked to the precision of thinking. And, you know, I'm really interested in how this kind of, I always use a pencil and I have notebooks, special notebooks with special paper, you know, and it's, uh, yeah, definitely. And then after that process I do a lot of research, and then often in the morning I'll wake up and I'll have a rough draft and then I'll be able to work on that for the rest, you know, for a might take a day or it might take a week. 

Heather Newman:  I, yeah, I, I, you know, I have my own quirky things that, you know, I don't even know if it's quirky, but it's just if you're a writer of like the pen, the paper the you know, and I actually have found, I do both with, I write on my laptop, I love a program called OneNote. And I write there and I write in different things. It sort of depends, you know, but we all have our, I don't know what feels good. I love it that you mentioned Durer because uh, there's a, the, do you know the, his drawing, uh, the hare, it's about the rabbit. The one of the rabbit. 

Carron Little:  Yes. 

Heather Newman:  That uh, that's always hung in my parents' home and it was one of the things and I told my mom, I was like, do not sell that in a garage sale one cause I want it, you know, cause she's a big garage saler. But I was like, but I was like, how did you pick that? You know? And cause she's, you know, she likes art and stuff, but, you know, she was like, I don't know, I just thought the rabbit was cute and I was like, okay, perfect. You know? And it was always something in my, in my home when, as a kid, you know, and then I went and found it so I could, you know, see it, um, in the flesh one time too. So that was kind of cool. But yeah. So, wow. I think it's so cool what you're doing. Um, and uh, so with the Spare Rib Revisited, how many cities have you actually done this in? 

Carron Little:  Um, so I'm, I was in Lucerne, um, in Switzerland in 2016. And, um, then they invited me back last year to perform in, their spoken words festival called Words and, and then I did it in Liverpool last year. And then I'm hoping, I've just received an invitation to go do it in Athens this year. So we'll see what happens with that. So 

Heather Newman:  That's super cool. That would be awesome. And obviously, have you been, you've been doing it in Chicago as well? Yes? 

Carron Little:  Ahh, well Chicago, I'm still waiting for Chicago to fund me. 

Heather Newman:  Well Chicago. We have a message for Chicago, my hometown get on it. 

Carron Little:  So, I'm hoping 2020 will be the year. You know, because it is, um, a special year for women. So it would be amazing if we were a go for that, 

Heather Newman:  I know I've been finding, you know, I, um, I, I was in England, um, last month and I took a trip to visit a friend in Manchester and I hadn't been there before. Um, and I got a moment to go over and, um, go to the Pankhurst's house there. Um, the, you know, started the suffragist movement and that was pretty special. Um, and I don't know, you know, it's, it's interesting. When you talk about story in poetry, I think, you know, it's like the artist's job and writer and theater, you know, is to one to tell stories but also preserve stories. Right. Um, do you find that you feel like in the last bit with everything that's been going on with all the different movements, you know, are you feeling that sort of women's stories bursting out in Chicago and there's more call for that sort of thing? Or what are you feeling about sort of that whole movement, um, as an artist? 

Carron Little:  Um, well I think it's, um, you know, it's still, um, a struggle, you know, in terms of, you know, really, um, creating this space for a women's voices, and women's stories to be heard. I think we're still, I mean, there's a lot of phenomenal organizations in Chicago that are doing great work. And, but I did ask, you know, we, uh, lobbied the, the cultural commissioner to like, you know, really get behind next year's. You know next year is the centennial of women's suffrage in America. And we really, we're hoping that this becomes a big dialogue, you know, across America as well. You know, but you know, at local levels in cities, uh, because I think, you know, there is, um, systemic inequality here. And you know, there's the pay issue, there's the economic stability of women, but then, you know, that that also kind of manifests itself into a whole other, you know, whole other realms of, of issues that, uh, women are facing in their personal lives. So I think we really have to, um, you know, the whole idea of equality really needs to be, um, looked at, uh, at local levels and institutions need to personally reflect on how they are on the pay equity issue. And I think if we can start getting that right, I mean, I know in the UK that they just, um, had this, um, survey where they're, they're forcing all the companies throughout the country declare the salaries of women, of everybody in the company so that they can analyze where, you know, where there is inequality. And the BBC were the first people to do that. And they were, they were very embarrassed. 

Heather Newman:  I know, I saw that. So, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that's, when you don't, when you can't see something, you can't address it necessarily. Right. I mean, and kudos to them for coming forward and, and doing that and hopefully that'll bring more, more people, you know, and watching the US you know, or watching the FIFA, watching the World Cup, watching the soccer team, you know, there's all of it. It just, um, hopefully more and more of that will come, especially with next year coming, you know, it should be a celebration and also at time for us to have a bit of a reckoning I think of how we treat each other. And I speak a lot in the technology world on diversity and inclusion and women and I find that, you know, like people do want, are looking to help and looking to change and there's ally ship all over the place. But I, I do feel like one, it starts with each of us as an individual, but it also starts with companies stepping up, you know, and saying, we want to address it and look at this. Right. 

Carron Little:  Yeah. And it's not about like placing blame or, you know, being negative about it. It's just like, okay, we need to address, you know, we need to move forward. We need to, um, you know, create a world where, you know, people are thriving and striving. You know, I mean, it's not about. So, you know, and I think there has been a collapse, you know, especially, you know, when we look at academia, I think there's a, a large conversation happening across the country about how the majority of the part time labor force are in fact female or woman academics. And um, you know, there's a college in California that has 92% that are part time. And you know, where I worked at the art institute, you know, it's 70%, and you know, the rise of the part time labor force, you know, is having, uh, you know, we really have to be realistic that this is having a detrimental impact on the stability of the economy as well. Because when people, you know, I mean there's so many ramifications that are happening, but on the good point, I mean I could,. You know, I sit, I also sit on the National Women in the Arts Committee and we were able to, for the College Arts Association, which is an art history organization in America. And we voted unanimously for the conference next year that comes to Chicago to dedicate 50% of its programming to women and women identified scholarship and artistic practice. And we just found out this week that that's happening and that's gone through. So that's a huge, the fact that the organization supported that petition to move forward with that policy is, is wonderful. 

Heather Newman:  That's so great. 

Carron Little:  Step-By-Step. 

Heather Newman:  Yes. Inch by inch, step by step for sure. And what a, I just love what you're doing and what you're bringing to the world. It's so cool. Um, you know, I, I usually ask at the, at the end about, um, sparks, I'm, I'm very interested in moments, micro moments and the macro moments of our lives. And, and also what if there was a moment or a person or a, something that, that sort of led you down the path of like, yes, this is what I want to do with my life. Is there something that comes to mind that you wouldn't mind sharing with our listeners? Your spark? 

Carron Little:  Wow. Gosh, there's, there's 

Heather Newman:  I know there's always a lot, but you know, everybody's like, are you, are you kidding me? It's like asking me my favorite food. But you know, like, 

Carron Little:  Yeah, you know, there, I guess, you know, my, both my parents, you know, my where, you know, political activists and, you know, were very influential in terms of, you know, my life, both brilliant people. And so I think, that there was a moment, um, where I was, I've been still in touch with, um, all of my professors from Goldsmiths in London and they've been super supportive of my career my whole life. And, um, I used to live down the road from the critical theory person, Peninnah Barnett. And she said, she rang me up one day and she said, Carron, I've got a ticket to a conference called Sex, Shame and Sexuality at the Tate Modern do you want to come? And I was like, Oh yes, that sounds interesting. Sex Shame and Sexuality. Wow. It's organized by the Freud Museum. That sounds interesting. I went along. And then, you know, it was really one of those, the Tate does some great conferences and then I was invited to a lunch with Grizelda Pollack, Peninnah Barnett, and the director of the Freud Museum. And I think maybe there was one other person and it was one of those moments where I'm sat around the lunch table with these like phenomenal women and I'd been teaching, I'd done my degree, my masters, and I'd been teaching in London for, for like seven years, maybe at that point in high schools. And I said to myself, wow, you know, I've been educated by these women. I've been brought up by feminists even, you know, the, I take that I go out into the world and, and do things. So that was a moment. And then it was wonderful because I was walking across the Millennium Bridge and Jenny Holzer had a public art work projected onto Saint Paul's Cathedral. And there was the words, um, there was, um, the text, um, in Urdu, that means peace and you know, there was like god, you know, and she, and there was just all Allah and just all of these, um, these words that, you know, were speaking about peace. They were speaking to different religions. And so, you know, that was a critical moment. And actually what was special, uh, when I went and did the Spare Rib project in Liverpool, it was right after the, the bombings, um, at the Ariana concert in Manchester. It was, it was very, it was like within, like, I think I arrived like 10 days after the bombings and I was invited. And then when I arrived in Liverpool, I was, um, speaking with, I met some Asian women at an event, at a luncheon or a dinner, and they invited me to a meeting at the local mosque. And so I'm sat around this table and the table was like 50 feet long, you know, I mean, it was a long table and five women were sat at one side. All the men were sat at the other side. And I sat myself in the middle and, you know, I just listened. I was there to observe the conversation and listen and you know, at the end of the conversation, um, you know, they wanted my, uh, perspective. And everybody who spoke, spoke with intelligence and thoughtfulness. And because I grew up in the north of England, I'm various astutely aware of the hatred that is perpetrated to, uh, young Asian children growing up in the schools and the systemic racism that is so prevalent. Um, and particularly in the, in the north of England where there are large, um, Indian and Pakistani populations. And, you know, I spoke, I just, you know, I spoke about this at this meeting and you know, and I, you know, to share my perspective that, that if we, when we treat others with so much hatred from a young age as they're growing up into the world we're going to inspire angry young people. Who then do join ISIS and become terrorists. So we really have to think about, you know, how are we putting care into our institutions to care for young people at an early age as they grow up through the systems. Or through our societies. You know. 

Heather Newman:  Absolutely. It sounds to me like there, there was some sparks, but there continues to be and it's great to hear that you're a person that is one providing a table, you know, for people to sit at and to learn and to hear different stories and that you are also, you know, being asked to be part of tables where those kinds of dialogues are happening in our world. You know, that's, I think that's really important. Ah, wow. Um, I'm so blown away by all the good things that you are doing. So, great. Um, and, and maybe to close out what's, what's next, what's next on your plate, speaking of tables? 

Carron Little:  So, I, I'm doing Out of Site, um, at the end of July and in Chicago. And so we've got the Swiss artists, uh, Patric Gehrig & Saskya Germann and Sojourner Zenobia and, uh, Wannapa P-Eubanks and um, Anna Brown and um, Erin Evans Delaney who are doing, and it just kind of so happens that all of their interactive performances are really thinking about these ideas of care and how we, um, the, the Swiss artists are going to be singing the public's, uh, blessings in, uh, in this ancient Swiss tradition of the Betruf. So that's going to be fun. So, um, creating public performance and then hopefully off to Athens and I've been invited, um, to Budapest in August and I'm going to be running a whole series of workshops on interactive public performance and performing and giving artist presentations. And then after that I'm going up to Riga, Latvia, to do a public performance there and give a presentation. 

Heather Newman:  So, you're a busy lady. 

Carron Little:  A lot of travel and meeting fun people. 

Heather Newman:  Yeah, no, I am a, I am a traveler myself, so I have friends in Budapest that I'm going to make sure and connect you with too, so that, 

Carron Little:  Ooh, that would be lovely. I'm actually, I do want to go to, I've got 6 days between, um, Sofia and Riga, so I do want to stop in Budapest and Prague on the way. 

Heather Newman:  Oh, lovely. Yeah. I'm going to go to Prague in December for a technology show and I've never been, I mean, I can't wait to go see the, all the Mooka, you know. Yeah, absolutely. Well, cool. Well, um, Carron, thank you so much for being on today and sharing your story with, with all of our listeners. I really, I am so, and that poem, my goodness. Thank you so much. 

Carron Little:  Well, thank you Heather, for inviting me. You know, it's special to have the opportunity to talk to you and uh, yeah, thank you so much for all the work that you're doing, you know. 

Heather Newman:  Yeah, yeah. It's, um, we mirror, we mirror goodness in each other I think, you know, when we're doing this kind of work and I just thank you for that and, and thank you for what you do. And, and you'll probably see Alison before I do, so you have to give her a hug me, so 

Carron Little:  I will give her a big special cuddle. 

Heather Newman:  Perfect. I love that. Even better. That's awesome. Okay, well thank you Carron. And um, yeah, absolutely. So everyone, um, we'll put all the goodness, um, in the show notes, links to things, and so you can find you on the Twitterattis and LinkedIn's and all that kind of fun stuff. And, uh, this has been another Mavens Do It Better podcast or you can find us on iTunes and Stitcher and Spotify and our website and all the great places where you listen to podcasts. So here's to another beautiful big blue day on this spinning sphere. Thank you. 

Episode 48: Compassion and Tech Maven Alcia Loach

Heather Newman:  Hello everyone. Here we are again for another episode of the Mavens Do It Better podcast where we interview extraordinary experts who bring a light to our world. And I couldn't be more excited to have a wonderful friend and colleague on today. Oh my God. Alcia, hello. How are you?

Alcia Loach:  Hi. Hi Heather, yeah, I'm really pleased to have been invited to talk with you. I listen to your podcast. I love the stories. So yeah, really excited to share my story.

Heather Newman:  Yes. I'm excited to have you on today. And I was, you know what, I think I was trying to think of if I've ever actually heard you pronounce your last name.

Alcia Loach:  No, oaky, so my last name is Loach. I get all sorts, I just tried to stay away from being the insect variety. It's actually a fish. The loach.

Heather Newman:  The Loach, Alcia Loach. Oh yeah, that's awesome. Okay, cool. Well, cause I was like, I, we had a chance to meet, um, in London. Gosh, was that last month or the month before maybe? My goodness. It's like time is flying by. On the speaker scene for SharePoint Saturday London. And, um, just, you know, we were up in the London Eye, thank you Seb Matthews and, uh, the folks that sponsored that and we just could not stop talking. So, um, I wanted to know have you on, and just connect again cause we started talking about all the cool things you're doing in the world and will you tell everybody a little bit about, you know, what you're doing today? Let's start with where you work and what you're doing there.

Alcia Loach:  Okay. Yeah. So, you know, I work at Hewlett Packard Enterprise, formerly known as HP. So, back when I joined HPE as we're now known, the company split into two. So we have HPI, they do the sort of desktops and servers and, and that kind of hardware stuff that everybody, you know, identifies with the HP name. But I work for the other half, which is HPE, which is Hewlett Packard Enterprise, and specifically, I work in the PointNext services division. So we are the people who, we do consultancy, we help to sort of enable digital transformation, large transformation programs. Yeah. One of our major programs that people might recognize is Tottenham Hotspur Stadium. Which is in North London. Yeah. It's an amazing stadium. I've got some really cheesy pictures of me like before and after, you know, here's the stadium being built and then, Whoa, here's the stadium and it's complete 100% pervasive WIFI that works.

Heather Newman:  Oh Wow. That's unbelievable.

Alcia Loach:  Yeah, it's awesome. I know it works. Yeah. Yeah, it does all sorts of fantastic way finding that helps to give an experience, you know, like a wow factor. So you don't have to queue up too long to get your hot dog or your burger and that kind of stuff that you can really enjoy the game. Yeah. So that's why I do, I'm a technical consultant, technical consultant there. So I help to deliver the project. I'm one of those resources that gets dropped in and we make the magic happen.

Heather Newman:  You know what? That's a perfect job title for you. You know, making the magic happen. I think that's definitely who you are.

Alcia Loach:  Yes, definitely.

Heather Newman:  That's awesome. Yeah, and you know, you and I were talking about diversity in tech and diversity and inclusion in tech, and we had a cool, we've had, we had a couple of very cool conversations about that and I love visiting other places, you know, outside the US where I live and getting perspectives from people from all over the world and different geographies and you know, from different places and all of that. And I know you're really involved with those initiatives inside of HP and maybe you'd share what you're doing there with everybody, with our listeners.

Alcia Loach:  Yeah. So, basically, the views I share now aren't HPE specifically. But I can share with you the activities that I'm involved in. You know, disclaimer time, just in case anybody, you know, gets offended by something I say. Basically, HPE are a really inclusive employer. I kind of tick the boxes on that score. If anybody looks me up, you'll, you'll know exactly what I mean. You know, I'm female and there is a real issue in the sector, just basically tech that women are underrepresented in technical roles. So HPE within the company, they're working really, really proactively to address those issues. And as a part of that initiative I sort of stepped forward to help to lead in the tech woman program. So that's a Europe wide initiative, EMEA as we call it, to try to, to sort of sign post women and also for people like myself who work in a technical career path, job to share our experiences and to, to let other women know that actually, do you know what it might be 17% in the UK, that is the statistics, 17% of female representative technical roles to 83% men. But you know what, the 83% men, they're actually quite cool. They're actually quite welcoming and they're great to work with because personally I've worked in this space since I was a graduate. So I've always been the only girl on the team and I've never really thought of myself in a lot of instances as the only girl in the room. You sort of forget your gender. When the people you work with empower you and support you and enable you and you see yourself as just a part of the team, it doesn't matter to you if the person who's thrown the ball, I like to work with analogies because I love netball. If the person who's throwing the ball is a guy or a girl it doesn't matter. It's whether or not they threw the ball to me and I could catch it. Yeah. So with the tech women initiative, the thing I stress the most in the program is that it's not so much about me being a female. It's whether I'm confident and capable at what I do. And that's the message that we want to say that look, confident, capable females, the roles in tech are just too good to pass over. Yeah. The opportunities are just, you know, they're amazing. The flexible working opportunities. The technology is actually quite mature now. Things like Office 365, I know that you are like a SharePoint girl as well. I'm a SharePoint girl, I was cheerleading for SharePoint, you know, before the world realized what SharePoint was.

Heather Newman:  We’re you on the Tahoe skis as well, you know?

Alcia Loach:  Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. I knew exactly what you mean. So, so the, the whole point is that the maturity of the technology that can be implemented in the workplace enables a kind of flexible working and that kind of working from home which never existed back in the early 1990s. Yeah. Which enables females to really create that balance in their life. You know, you can have the baby on your knee, but you're still writing the project plan, you know? Or if it's not a baby on the knee, you can still like load the dishwasher and you're, you know, you're running the meeting. So I just think it's just too good to keep as a secret. I could keep quiet and just not share it with anybody else and say, Oh, you know what, it's really tough. It's really hard work. It is really hard work. But you know what, if you've got the right tools, yeah, you can work smart and it makes your life just so much more enjoyable. For instance, today we have this new initiative. It's totally awesome. I really should keep quiet, but I can't.

Heather Newman:  This will come out in a few weeks. So maybe you'll be all right.

Alcia Loach:  Yeah. So we have this, we, we've been given Wellness Friday, so every Friday we can take, we can basically log out three hours before the close of play for the day and then you are encouraged to just do something for you. So either, you know, exercise, spend time with friends and family, be mindful. So I decided to kind of combine everything. I went off to the pick your own and I picked some strawberries and then I went and I got a bottle of champagne and I called my friend up and I said, I've got my Wellness Friday, how about I come over?

Heather Newman:  Aww, that's awesome!

Alcia Loach:  Yes. I turned up with, you know, strawberries picked by me, a bit of champagne, I managed to read a really good heartwarming book before picking the strawberries. So I said, I'm all yours and we can just like, just feast. And I'm actually talking to you from her kitchen. So yeah, it's great. It's great to have those kind of initiatives and to be able to do that. You know, I just, I can't help but share it and hope that other women, you know, other smart, capable, confident women step forward and say, you know what? I want a piece of that too.

Heather Newman:  And other employers hear something like that and go, you know, maybe that's an interesting idea. What about a Wellness Friday? You know, there's a lot of places that don't do things like that. And I think that hearing about those initiatives, you know, I think people are looking for ways to keep us happy, you know, at work, you know, and to keep us productive. Right? And so I think, you know, yes, people stepping forward and saying yes, we need that, I think one. And then also, you know, an employer going, you know, HPE is huge, right? I mean, that's a big company. So kudos in many ways. Okay. I want to know what book you read.

Alcia Loach:  Oh Gosh. Oh yeah. So you'll probably get it. You've probably read this. I don't know if I was inspired by you. It's called Slay in your Lane. I think you told me about it on the London Eye.

Heather Newman:  Yes. Slay in Your Lane, yes, that's a good one. Awesome. Right on. That's great. It's so funny. I don't know. I mean, I guess I'm sort of, since I run my own businesses, I guess I'm giving myself my own Wellness Friday, if you will. Cause I just flew from Los Angeles. I'm in Sonoma County right now at a friend's house. She's working and I stopped at the Mac Boutique in Alaska Airlines at LAX and got her some, a little Mac travel sized makeup. And I'm going to, I'm going to meet her and go have champagne at my favorite place up here. Cause I used to live up here, we're going to go to Iron Horse and do some tasting. So yeah. So, I think we're on the same plane lady.

Alcia Loach:  It's all about achieving balance in life, isn't it? Happy people are productive people and I was saying to my friend that, you know, my boss can always ask me to do something extra. Yeah. Because, you know, they give extra. Yeah. And it swings in roundabouts, isn't it?

Heather Newman:  Yeah, no, absolutely. I think that's a huge thing. You know, it's like there's so much right now about I would say employee engagement and company culture and also diversity and inclusion. And I think, but it's, there's this, there's a larger, there's a, there's an umbrella that I think is, um, unfolding that's, you know, there's been a lot of rain, a lot of like, I don’t know, acid rain. So, if I'm using an analogy, an umbrella of thinking about mindfulness and I don’t know. So I was talking to somebody the other day and we were talking about balance and, another MVP friend Dux had said something about this and Brene Brown talks, there's a lot of people that sort of talk about work life balance and I'm Kind of the mind that, you know, we're on 24/7 now, you know, like I don't feel like we shut off. So work and life to me are so blended and I have so many friends that I work with and we're in each other's lives. And you know, it's like, I try to have conversations sometimes that are just about, I don’t know, like Salvador Dali or whatever, you know, but we do end up, you know, talking about work. And do you find that it's just a blend, you know, like,

Alcia Loach:  Yeah, yeah. Life gets a bit, yeah, it's because as you say, it's kind of like you're switched on. The Internet doesn't go down, does it? I mean, unless you live rurally. So, you're, you're always connected and also our brains, I don't know about you, but I really do have to practice mindfulness. To shut down my brain because it's on, you know? Thankfully cause I can breathe, so it's on. But it's on and it's sort of, you know, tallying lists of things to do. And my list of things to do, it's a blend, like you say, it's a blend of work, it's a blend of charity initiatives. It's a blend of, you know, just life happening. You've got to feed yourself, you've got to do the shopping, you've got to walk the dog, you know, you've got to push the hoover around. And, and yeah, my brain, even though my body wants to switch off cause my body's like I'm really tired brain, my brain can still keep going even when I'm like lying down in bed going, I want to sleep. So, yeah, you do need to find that, that separation or that moment where you just literally go and you switch it off. You know, I mean not saying that champagne switches it off but it helps.

Heather Newman:  It maybe turns it down a little.

Alcia Loach:  But you know, time with friends, time with family, time just, I love being by water. So time just stood looking over still water, stills me, as well. So yeah, you've got to find time for that.

Heather Newman:  I find when I don't, I try very, very hard to keep my morning practice of writing in my gratitude journal, of Meditating for a bit and not touching my phone until after I've eaten breakfast and done something physical and it's sooo hard. And I actually just got an alarm clock, a new alarm clock that isn't my phone. I have an Alexa as well.

Alcia Loach:  That's a good idea.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. Well, it just, it was like if you're touching, somebody said to me, if you're stroking or your phone as you get up and before you go to bed, that's the bad thing to be stroking. And I was like, oh my goodness. And I was like, good point. But anyway, uh, yeah, no, I think that, that there's a lot of things that we can be doing and, yeah. Are you a meditator? Do you meditate?

Alcia Loach:  Well that's the thing, I'm not, I'm not terribly good at meditation. Cause like, because I just said my brain just like to show off. So instead of I get those moments when I run. Because just the sheer pain of running.

Heather Newman:  That's a Zen moment.

Alcia Loach:  is a distraction.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. That's a Zen moment, for sure. Yeah.

Alcia Loach:  It's a distraction. So I, I tend to, I tend to run and because I can feel the pain in my legs, I can feel my heart beat, and I have to concentrate on my breathing, you know, and there's so much going on, I have no time to really start to think through the things I've got to do. My list disappears and instead it's just kind of like survival mode. The other activity I've recently taken up at past couple years, which does that as well, which is awesome, is diving.

Heather Newman:  Oh yeah. I love,

Alcia Loach:  Talk about survival mode.

Heather Newman:  I know. It's so awesome and so scary all at the same time. And I love it. Yes.

Alcia Loach:  Yeah. Because I tell you what, there's nothing, there's nothing like submerging yourself under like 18 meters of water. With just something in your mouth for you to breathe in and out of. And then all the other stuff going on, you know, flotation and all buoyancy and all rest of it going on. To really, um, you know, clear your head.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, agreed. We'll have to go diving somewhere. I would, I didn't know you were a diver. We'll have to do that. That'd be awesome.

Alcia Loach:  Oh yeah, that'd be a, so I'm going to go to Mexico next week. My daughter is in Belize and she said the diving was awesome. They had five nurse sharks follow them on their dive. So, she's gotten to see do gongs and, and all sorts. So yeah, definitely. That's a date.

Heather Newman:  All right. Yep. We'll, we'll take that offline and like, cause I love Mexico as well. So. Cool. Okay, fair enough. Um, I want to switch gears a little bit and talk about, you know, you not only, you're obviously working in technology and working for HPE and doing all these great things and initiatives and I know you have another initiative in the charitable world that's super cool. Your Pocket Angel app. I would love for you to tell our listeners about that cause it's so neat. And before you do that, where, where are you right now in the world?

Alcia Loach:  Oh, so at the moment I am, well based

Heather Newman:  Where do you live, I guess?

Alcia Loach:  Where do I live? Yes. Yeah. Cause I'm actually at my friend's house. So I live in the southeast of the United Kingdom. So the southeast of England. Near Gatwick airport. So, for those of you who fly into Gatwick, if you look out the window to the side and you see fields just as you're about to land, my house is in one of the little villages around the airport. And so I live sort of in a village south of Dorking, it's called Newdigate. When the kids were growing up I said all the nudies are in Newdigate. They're not. It's just a very quintessential English village with, you know, two pubs, a church and a village shop, yeah, and lots of fields. That's where I am.

Heather Newman:  Fantastic. Yeah. And so did Pocket Angel start there? Tell everybody about that because that's just so neat. So please.

Alcia Loach:  Yeah. So, yeah, so this is one of those blended moments. Yeah. So as a part of my new job with HPE, which takes me across United Kingdom because I'm in delivery, so I go to the customer site. I sort of started traveling across the United Kingdom and I guess a bit like most cities in the world, most places in the world now we have a growing number of homeless people. And we have rough sleepers. So those are the homeless people who are sort of visible. Who you see sat on the curb, you know, on the pavement, asking for help. Yeah. And so as a part of my visits to customer sites I started to notice the numbers of rough sleepers and say in year one, let's just say hypothetically, you know, I noticed that there were five people on the pavement in a certain area. The second year that number doubled. And you know, by the middle of the second year it looked like something's going wrong in society. So the analyst in me comes to the fore, and you sort , you start to pick up the newspaper and you see the articles and you listen to the news and you hear the news. But not only that, I started to have really personal close encounters with homeless people with rough sleepers. And I have to clarify, when I say rough sleepers, I'm talking about the people who are very visible. The ones that we see begging on the streets who physically are sat on the pavement. Yeah. Because homelessness has a wide range of people. We have hidden homeless as well. People who are sofa surfing, okay. So the people who impacted me at first were the ones I could see who would ask me for food or a hot drink. And in England, we've got a bit of a reputation for cold, drippy, gray weather. Which personally I don't, you know, I'm not very good at. So when I'm wrapped up in my coat with my scar and my hat and my gloves and you see me and I look like, you know, like I'm, you know, equipped for Siberia. And I see somebody else who's sat with very little on, you know, asking me for a cup of coffee, I can't help but to help to help them. And it actually, I felt at one point as if my heart was breaking. So I started putting aside an allowance for coffees, you know, so you just have to ask me, you got a coffee. That's it. I'd have to go and buy the coffee because personally and it is a personal choice for me, I don't give cash because I don't want the person spending the cash on, you know, on certain items that I wouldn't personally buy myself and I don't want to perpetuate a cycle of addiction. So I would feel compelled to join the queue at Costa or Starbucks or whatever other coffee brands are available to buy a cup of coffee. And then I had guilty moments where I couldn't because, you know, as I said, I'm doing this for work, so I'm going off on a client visit and I've got a time that I need to get to the client for. And if the queue is too long, then I can't get you the coffee. And because of my own principle of not giving cash, I faced a bit of a dilemma, you know, that moment of crisis where you go, well, if I could give you something that isn't cash, but be sure that you got the coffee, you know, that'd be great. So I then called up like some of the major charities and asked, you know, do you have a voucher? Could I just buy some vouchers so I can give out to these people? And they said no, they didn't have a system like that. And I was quite surprised that they didn't have system. I just thought it was a de facto thing because we're all used to getting gift cards, I mean I get gift cards all the time for Christmas. And I was thinking, well, it's just a gift card, you know, loaded with money. It's not that difficult because of course we are techie people aren't we? So you know, it's not that hard. Oh, I'll tell you how much. Yeah. How much was I to learn. So,

Heather Newman:  Always learning, always learning.

Alcia Loach:  Always learning life is a learning experience. So I then decided to draft a design of how I thought a voucher system should work, you know, wire frame, storyboard, you know, the usual stuff that we do to design the system. I put it in a nice little package and I emailed all the heads of major charities and said, you know, like a gift, you know, here is a system I think you guys could really benefit from developing, you know, if you need any help, please let me know. But kindest regards, Alcia, really looking forward to seeing it. And I waited a year and nothing turned up. And I was just like, I can't believe they haven't done it. So I went on Twitter and then started following a few of these people and kind of like plugging it and nobody bit. Then you know, you know, sometimes life has a wonderful way of giving you a cliché that you then actually learned the true meaning of the cliché when you're living it. When people say if not you then who and if not now, then when? Yeah. I had that moment like last year, summer 2018, so the summer of 2018 I watched a program, it wasn't even the summer, it was the winter of 2018 so it must be January or February. I watched a program on the nightly news. Yeah. Where a homeless man died in front of a Bedlin superstore and the image was of a police cordon and the person was there and he was had partly frozen to death because we'd had a bit for cold snap. Yeah. And in the window, we're duvets and pillows on a lovely bed, and sorry, I have to struggle not to cry, cause I'm a bit of a crier. And I just thought, not on my watch. It should not happen. You know, and it's, it's dark. Yeah. To think that in one of the richest countries of the world, this could happen. And so I got really angry. But it's that kind of righteous anger that you feel that you think, well, do you know what? I'm going to do something about this. And so, I took the same plans that I had and said, okay, fine, they're not going to do it. I'll do it. And I sort of reached out to resources to ask if they could develop the app. But obviously, you know, a lot of the resources I know they're all stuck doing like their paid job and they're like, oh, we'd love to help but, really busy. You can see how busy we are. So, call it the universe or whatever. Yeah. I literally just went, I really need somebody to help with this app. And my mobile phone rang, and it was an Indian company who were looking for work in the SharePoint space. And I said to them, I'm not a decision maker when it comes to the, you know, who my employer employs, but guess what guys, I've got a great opportunity for you. And they said, okay, explain what it is. And I told them and apparently it pulled on their heart strings and they said, okay, so what's your budget? And I kid you not. I stood there and thought, well okay, how much could I reasonably expect to crowd fund? So I just went, oh 5,000 pounds. And they said, oh, and what does it look like? So I sent them all, all the design things, cause I've had those already done. They called me back the next day and they said, okay, from what, from the design you've given us, you do realize it wouldn't cost 5,000 pounds. And I said, yeah, but that's all I could think that I could reasonably get from crowd funding in a short time. And they said, okay, we'll do it at a discounted price for you as goodwill because we can see that it's altruistic and all that. So, okay, great. So that's it. We started, we started work and a prototype was made, I hit the 5,000 pound limit that I'd set myself , target that is on, get this, I will never forget this, on December the 31st, 2018 at exactly midnight, I hit the target.

Heather Newman:  No way!

Alcia Loach:  Yeah, yeah. I get the target. It was the happiest New Year's present I've ever had from anybody. And it was, it was actually a young girl that I knew who said that she just had this feeling that she had to just make a donation and she donated, you know, the equivalent of a month's salary for herself. Yeah. To push us over the finish line. But the message it just sent to me was, you know, this is going to happen. Yeah. And you know, like, like I was being willed, pushed to just do it. So, so yeah. So since then, oh, I don't know how to describe the story now. It's just been one, one bit of serendipity after another. It's just been wonderful. So, I door stopped the UK managing director of HPE, great guy called Mark Waters. Sorry Mark, I'm giving you a shout out. You know, I don't want to embarrass you or anything. But I door stopped him and I, I'd been practicing my elevator pitch for about two months. And anybody who knows me knows that being succinct is not my strong suit. So to get an elevator pitch down to three minutes to win over Mark was going to be like, I don't, you know, an amazing accomplishment for me. I did it and he just said, email me, email me what you want, yeah, I'll see what I can do for you. And off the back of that he basically obsolete, just sent out emails asking other staff if they wanted to volunteer. Yeah. Pro Bono. It's all about volunteering. I got a really good response from global marketing team, a really good response from the global legal team. So, off the back of that, marketing helped to secure a team of really young people who have a really cool name, the Bright Young Things from Brighton University, you couldn't make it up. So I had this team, can you imagine that when I wake up to a team, a team of really young, enthusiastic people, yeah, want to help you and they're called the Bright Young Things and you just need to direct them. Great So I got the bright Young Things. So they're doing the marketing and all of the promotion and all the events planning for us to recruit our partners because we need service providers to accept the vouchers. And then legal, you know, I got two people from legal who said they'll help to set up Pocket Angel, you know, to be a charitable organization. So, you know, the, the whole formality of all the paperwork that you have to go through and all the hoops you have to jump through. That was suddenly taken away from me. So I got a really vibrant, amazing, awesome young lawyer called Yashin who is now a part of the Pocket Angel leadership team. And she is formalizing the structure for Pocket Angel, so that we can, you know, we can meet a public benefit. We can help to get ourselves some funding and just basically have the right sort of structure, you know, so that the benefit of Pocket Angel will be for the vulnerable people that it was designed to help. Yeah. So you know, when they say, what is it, you can only reach a height by standing on the shoulder of giants. Yeah. For me, my giant was actually my, I can't call him my colleague, but he's, you know, he's like the, at the very top here in the UK is my managing director. And for you to be able to say that about the place you work and the person who is in charge of you I think is an awesome thing. You know, that that person actually takes the time to listen, actively and to act. Yeah. So that was brilliant. And so where are we now with this? So, painting a picture I've got marketing team, I've got, you know, a team of trustees. Well we have to say trustees in quotation. And in that team of trustees, I also have another colleague who I work with in the SharePoint space, Andy Gin has done everything imaginable from website editing to, you know, pavement pounding in Brighton to talk to service providers. You know, to just basically putting up a cardboard city to make it look like a homeless, you know, a homeless shelter for us to put on a VR experience, which is an immersive video in a Google Oculus headset. That transports you to the level of the rough sleeper. Yeah. So, you feel as if you’re sat on the pavement and the world is walking past you. And that video footage, the VR video for footage, we've been kindly given permission to use it by another awesome charity called the Passage, who do some amazing work in the homeless sector. So it's just been, I don't know, Heather, you know, how to describe the journey it's been, oh, awesome. Yeah.

Heather Newman:  It's amazing. And the, in the app, so the app itself provides a voucher. It's a cash alternative. And then there's products from businesses who have signed up to be part of Pocket Angel. You can buy that voucher using the app. You give the code for the voucher to the rough sleeper and then they can present it and get certain things. Is that how that works?

Alcia Loach:  Yes. Brilliant. Yeah. You got it. So yeah, exactly. So the, the, the app helps you to buy that voucher, like you say. And on the voucher it's a six digit code. And that six digit code, so for the providers, the service providers, so the business who will give the person the hot drink or the meal. Yeah. They only need to be presented with that six digit code. They don't even need you to print out the voucher. They just want the six digit code. They've agreed that the person could ever come with it scribbled in their hand. Or they could take a picture of the voucher. So you have the voucher in your phone, they can take a picture of the voucher. A homeless guy who spoke at an event that we had, he said he would just put it in his phone as a telephone number, you know, or in the memo field. So people need worry that that six digit code is hard to understand. You know, people will be able to write it, take a picture of it, you know, do whatever they want because the businesses so far have just said it's okay if they come in and say Pocket Angel gave me a six digit code, we will give them the goods. Yeah. The important bit is they will only get what the code is valid for. So if it's a hot drink, they get hot drink, they don't get any change and they don't get any cash. So we're also keeping cash out of the system, you know, out of that transaction. And the benefit of that is that any change will be put into a pool, which will then be divided to help the other charities who are doing like awesome work when it comes to mental health services. You know, cause it's usually a lot of emotional breakdown and mental health issues that affect homeless people. So there's some really great charities who are doing work there and they have a funding gap. There are also charities who provide, you know, other services that we want to support. So, you know, you needn't worry that any single aspect of your donation will be wasted. Yeah. Everything will go into a pool and everything will be directed to the services that help to give that wrap around service to help people out of homelessness.

Heather Newman:  And is it, so the app will be available later this summer, is that right? Fall summer?

Alcia Loach:  So, we're going to go for autumn, which you guys in the states called the Fall. I say Fall as well. I've got to like adjust here as well. So, um, I will say Fall to some people and they're like, when's Fall? And I was like, Autumn. Oh yeah. So, yeah, so we're, we're aiming for the Autumn for the app to be available in the Apple store and in the Play store. And that will, that will be specific to only Brighton because we're sort of starting small. We're learning our lessons in Brighton and then we hope to move on to the next city and to expand. We had extraordinary contacts from people asking, you know, can the app come to my city? I mean literally worldwide Heather.

Heather Newman:  No, yeah, it will be that. And I can't wait for that. That's amazing. Wow. Wow.

Alcia Loach:  But for now, it's a land and expand from Brighton. So unfortunately it will only be available in Brighton, but if people want to support us, you know, please feel free to, to help in whatever way you can. We've got a GoFundMe because we, we will need some kind of financial backing to help us with the, you know, the maintenance of the app. To get, for instance, we're thinking of getting like a charity worker on the ground in Brighton to support the initiative, you know, so that when a rough sleeper goes to the business, you know, that community aspect of it, we need to make sure that we have a person there who would manage relationships and manage things for us. So, you know, as with everything there's always costs, a lot of time, a lot of transition.

Heather Newman:  Yup. That's wonderful. So, um, amazing. This is so cool. And you know, to sort of wrapping it back into sort of everything else, talk about, will you talk about a spark that sort of got you to where you are, like with doing this sort of work with the tech, it's a huge question. I know, you know, of what's, what's your guiding, what's, what, what guides you, you know?

Alcia Loach:  What guides me. Okay. So, yeah, so, my guiding force is I guess the force that created me. And so yeah, so there are all sorts of different, it doesn't matter to me, I'm very open minded. It doesn't matter to me what you call it. If you call it the universe, because some people have said you know, the universe asked and you answered, or universe beckons and you do. Or if you call it God or, my friend calls it the divine WIFI, which I think is, it's pretty awesome actually. So it's, it's as if there's this driving force that drives us to do good, to be good, to be light in the world. And that's why I think I had that synergy with you when we met. Because I could see the light in you and I think you could also see the light in me. And, it's that, how do you put it, it's that desire to do good and to be good. To do your personal best. Yeah. I'm in no way bigging up myself and saying, I'm this great person. Yeah. No, I'm, I'm striving like everybody else is striving, you know, to be a better person. To do my best, to live my best life. And I think with Pocket Angel, it definitely, that spark was there because when I looked at that person on the pavement, I didn't see any number of derogatory names that people have for those people. Instead, I saw a being who wasn't being their best self. They weren't given the opportunity to live their best life. Yeah. And, and, but, you know, some people say, but for the grace of God, you know, but for happenstance or circumstance, there go I, yeah. And so that heartbreak that you feel, or that I felt in that moment that sort of triggered that anger, I felt was, you know, how can I walk past this person to ignore their plight? You know, Michael Jackson, God rest his soul. He, you know, when he sang about looking the man, the man in the mirror, you know, and it's about seeing that suffering and not divorcing yourself from it, but actually feeling it, opening your heart to it and feeling it, and realizing that sometimes we fall, but we need someone else to lift us up. You know, we need somebody to give us a helping hand and not everybody has the same strength. So we kind of have to lend our strength to someone sometimes when they need a little bit of support, a little bit of kindness. So, Pocket Angel, separate and apart from the app, we now have a long-term vision. So we have a short term vision, which is to have this app assist. Yeah. Which is what I call the life support mode, where you are giving sustenance and you're not letting the person freeze and you're looking them in the eye and saying, I care for you. What do you want? And we're giving them choice as well because remember without giving them cash if you go and you buy the coffee, you don't know if they want a, you know, a flat white or a decaf or, you know? Or if they want a veggie burger or a beef burger, which I made the mistake I went and bought a beef burger for a vegetarian homeless guy, you know, because you're on the curb doesn't mean that you've completely changed who you are. So the first phase is the assist. The second phase we see as restore and that's where I'm totally excited and I can't wait to get there. And restore is where we can voucherize and sort of crowd fund the journey of that person through a training course. So we can provide all the meals that they need, all the drinks that they need, and then we can break the course down into so many vouchers so we could sell so many vouchers to send, you know, I don't know, let's use a really you know, generic name John, so we can send John through a vocational course or whatever course to get him back on its feet and back in a job. Yeah. And then the final stage of that is we want to have Pocket Angel Home where we have like a brick and mortar home, but not just any old home, like a home that I would live in, you know, and a home that's comfortable, a home that they can choose how to decorate their own rooms. But also a home that's like a family. So they have a mental health specialist on, you know, onsite, they've got all the services that they need to help them on that journey back into independent living. And then the whole wraparound of all the this is that we see our website, eventually when we get great website designer to volunteer, is we want to have Pocket Angel inform. And that's where we give the world, the community, the resources that they need to help them to learn how to treat these people, you know, in a human kind way. Yeah. We inform them as to what services there are near you. So, you know, using geolocation, you're standing here, you see the guy there, you can tell him, you know, go there or you see the girl there, you could tell them go there. Just mean having that useful information to inform yourself and to also inform the person on the curb. We are also going to start a schools program and literally we started the schools program straight away because, we found a really great volunteer who's got the right kind of personality for it. He's a great public speaker and he is going to go into the schools with the VR headset with a great power point slide deck and he's going to start straight off in the schools in the, in the surrounding area around Brighton. You know, so teaching the young yeah. From, you know, from, from a really tender age as to, you know, the issue, the complexity of the issues behind homelessness, but also enabling them to see Pocket Angel as a tool that they can use to make a difference in whatever way they can.

Heather Newman:  That's amazing. You're amazing. This is awesome. Wow!

Alcia Loach:  Oh, thank you.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. I'm so excited about this and everybody, we will put all of the information about how to connect with Alcia and also Pocket Angel. I'm sure that many of you will be interested in this and want to connect and want to figure out how you can bring it to your city and help. And so we'll make sure to connect all those dots for everyone. Um, goodness. Thank you for sharing all of that in your story. It's so great. I, there's so much I knew and so much I didn't, but that always happens. It's so cool. I love it.

Alcia Loach:  Oh, thank you. Thank you very much, Heather. It's been an absolute pleasure. Yeah, you know, you're great. Thank you so much for having me. I really, really look forward to your mavens episodes and I'll look forward to the next bit that I learn something on, so that would be great.

Heather Newman:  Absolutely. Well, wonderful. And keep on keeping on because you're doing good things and I saw your light, you know, and it just, it was, I was like, aww. So anyway, so I just want to thank you for being a guest and thank you for sharing and thank you for everything you're doing in the world. It's really lovely.

Alcia Loach:  Thank you, Heather. Thank you for everything you're doing.

New Speaker:   Thank you. Absolutely. Cheers and tears. We'll have to crack those bottles of champagne soon. So yay. All right, well cheers and thank you everybody. This has been another Mavens Do It Better podcast. You can find us on all the usual places, iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify on our website. And here's to another beautiful, happy Friday, big blue spinning day on this sphere. And thanks everybody. Have a great day.

 

Episode 47: Compassionate Maven April Wensel

Heather Newman:  Hello everyone. Here we are again for another episode of the Mavens Do It Better podcast where we interview extraordinary experts who bring a light to our world. And I am very excited today to bring you another wonderful podcast with April Wensel who, uh, I met via Twitter, which is a great place to meet. Um, she's the founder of a wonderful company called Compassionate Coding. She's a keynote speaker and engineering leader and lots more and I'm very excited to have her on the show today. April why don’t you say Hi to everybody.

April Wensel:  Hi everybody. And Hello Heather. Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be here.

Heather Newman:  Ah, absolutely. So yeah, it's, you know, it's always fun to, you know, see people that you like start following and you're like, I love what they're doing and it's so neat. And so April and I have kind of been having this Twitter relationship and um, and then I reached out and said, hey, why don't you come tell everybody what you do on the podcast. So, um, I know you, you're the founder of Compassionate Coding and I'd love for you to share a little bit about, um, that and who you are and give our listeners a little flavor into what you do every day. That'd be awesome.

April Wensel:  Sure. I'd be happy to a, so I started off working as a software engineer. So with a computer science background and you know, I came to lead engineering teams and I did all of that for about 10 years in Silicon Valley. And I noticed that although I was having fun writing code and doing the sort of engineering thing, I noticed there was a distinct lack of emphasis on the human side of things in the tech industry. And it shows up in a lot of different ways, whether it's the, the lack of diversity, which I think ultimately stems from lack of empathy and understanding of different types of people, to, you know, building unethical products or using people's data in questionable ways, which we see a lot coming to the surface now of how that's, that's happening. And burnout on a personal level. Like, people are burning out and that's, that's an issue. And also just like unproductive conflict on teams. And so I saw all these issues and people were trying to solve them on an individual level. And I thought, you know what the common element here is that we really just don't care enough about people. We're just not talking enough about our messy human selves. And you know, we're relying too much on the logic and the rational side of computing. So anyway, so all of that happened and that's why I started Compassionate Coding cause I was like, you know, these are skills that can be trained. You, you know, there, you can learn emotional intelligence, you can practice, compassion, you can grow these skills. And so that's what my company does is I inspire people and train people on growing their emotional intelligence specifically in the tech industry. And I focused on engineers because that's my background. But all kinds of people come to my workshops that work in any part of the tech sector.

Heather Newman:  That's super cool. Yeah, I was looking at April's website and it's all about, you know, a different approach and I, you're speaking to my heart sister.

April Wensel:  That's great.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. And the, you know, there's a slide up on her site. It's compassionatecoding.com and "Remember that you're dealing with human beings, not machines". Where did, when did you get that how long has that slide been up as part of your presentations?

April Wensel:  Uh, you know, that one was from last year, I think. And uh, but that's always been part of it. I often say like we may be working on machines but we're working with and for human beings and sometimes I phrase it in that way. But that specific slide was from a great conference called Anxiety Tech that was all about building tech for mental health that happened in San Francisco last year. Uh, but yeah, I just think it's such an important issue and we lose sight of it cause we're so focused on the hot new technology and we're like, wait a second, why are we doing it in the first place? Except for the humans on the other side of it.

Heather Newman:  Absolutely. And so you got started. So you're, I know you're coming to us today from San Diego, so we're, we're coming to each other, virtually me in Marina del Rey, you in San Diego. Are you originally from there? Is that where you got your start?

April Wensel:  Uh, no. So I was born in Palo Alto, but when I was young we moved to Texas. So I grew up most of my life, my early life in Texas and moved back out to California for school to Southern California, Pomona College, a little school in Claremont. And um, then I moved up to the Bay Area cause I majored in computer science and that's where you go, Silicon Valley. And then I spent 10 years there and only moved to San Diego a couple of years ago, partly to escape some of the tech culture that I was working to change and I needed a little like breather from all that and just the weather is so much better down here as I'm sure, you know.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. We're, we're both having a good day in California on the weather side. We were both talking about earlier. That's awesome. And you know, you're working in kind of all of the different technologies. I mean, we were talking a little bit earlier, you know, I grew up in the Microsoft world and so, but you're kind of more open source, a bit of everything, right? When you were talking about the different companies and different ways, I mean, human human spans everything, but do you tend to see that you're playing in certain sort of areas of technology more than others? Or is it just all over the place a bit?

April Wensel:  You know, it's really all over the place, which is consistent with my background because working as an engineer, I jumped around quite a bit as well. In terms of languages and platforms I was using as well as, uh, you know, even the sectors within tech. So, like, you know, I worked in education, tech, health tech, gaming, some bioengineering research, basically across the board. And so, uh, you know, my clients range from, uh, you know, big kind of tech media companies to like small open source startups that like I'm talking to like eight people to like some of the web companies, you know, social media companies. It's sort of, you know, one time too, like a hotel company that just happened to have like, you know, an IT department. And so it really just is completely across the board, lots of variety, which keeps it interesting for me. For sure.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, absolutely. And I know you have talks, like you're doing talks where you talking about compassionate tech values. Will you talk to everybody about that a little bit is what that means?

April Wensel:  Yeah. So I learned about this idea of compassion from the Greater Good Science Center at UC Berkeley. They have this great definition that, that compassion is recognizing suffering and other people and then wanting to take action to alleviate that suffering. And when I first heard that I was on a compassion retreat and it struck me because it was about, it seemed very rational, whereas before I sort of saw compassion as this kind of fuzzy thing that I couldn't quite wrap my head around. And this made it very explicit and I was like, oh, that makes sense. I mean, even in tech we talk about alleviating pain points, customer pain points or pain points on the team. And that's really compassion. So compassionate, when I talk about compassionate tech values, uh, basically it's about bringing that concern for making people suffer less. Whether they're people building technology, the people using it or even people indirectly affected by it. And it's a way of using compassion to make decisions on a daily basis and on a large scale in terms of strategy for the company. And it's good for the bottom line because you know, when you care about your users and your customers, your employees and yourself, self-compassion is a big piece of this, you know, you do better work. People are happier, more productive. Um, and you're making your customers happy too.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's funny the, in working in the, you know, the Microsoft world and helping build community, especially in Office 365 and SharePoint, you know, we've seen a lot of talk about inclusive behavior and then inclusive culture. And you know, I think that there's a, I don't know, a stronger appetite for it, right? We have a bit of a culture shift with kind of all the things that have happened in politics and also, you know, just in our world with a lot of movements with, you know, Black Lives Matter and #MeToo and all of that. Are you feeling and seeing that shift as well, where companies are like, you know, yeah, I want to spend part of my budget on this stuff. I mean, you have a business around it, I have a business around it. I'm feeling that shift. You feeling that as well?

April Wensel:  Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, people are kind of a lot of companies have neglected it for so long that they're kind of scrambling, you know, and they just really need, they really need help, you know? So I think they're willing to invest in this sort of thing because they, they see how important it is. And, you know, we talk sometimes about technical debt in terms of like, if we've neglected some of the code and it sort of gets a little rotten over time. I feel like we have a lot of culture debt and these companies where for so long they've been hiring and building cultures around know a very particular person, which is, you know, sort of the stereotypical tech employee of like, you know, white male, CIS, et Cetera. And now, like you're talking about, we have all these shifts and they're like, oh, we are, you know, the future is not more and more of these clones. We actually have to welcome in diverse people and not just welcome them in, but you know, keep them there and make sure that we're getting, uh, we're allowing them just to, to share their strengths in every way possible. Because that's, that's what benefits, you know, everybody.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I was reading through some of the posts that you had recently, and I gave a presentation last year about fear and toxicity in the workplace. And do you find, do you find that people are, you know, that some of this stuff is just based in a lot of just simple, plain fear, you know, like that the, you know, maybe there's not malice involved, but there's just those basic lizard brain fears that we come upon and that, that make people kind of the way that they are. I Don’t know, I keep, I keep going back to that.

April Wensel:  Absolutely. I think that honestly, like all of the negative behavior you see, I think all of it can be traced back to fear ultimately, no matter what it is. No, I think you're, you're spot on there and like when people kind of puff up and try to show off their ego, which happens a lot in tech. I think that that's coming from fear. When people like hire the same person and the same kind of person over and over again, that's fear. It's sort of fear of the unknown of something unfamiliar. Um, I think, you know, a lot of times it's insecurity, fear, uh, you know, which is a form of fear. Like it's all, that's what's causing these, which is why, you know, I talk so much about self-compassion cause I think if people are more compassionate with themselves, they can take care of that fear at the, at the root and then stop kind of projecting it onto the world.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, absolutely. I always kind of go back to RuPaul with, "If you can't love yourself, how the hell are you going to love anybody else?"

April Wensel:  I love it. Yes, exactly. The wisdom of RuPaul right there.

Heather Newman:  Absolutely. Um, do you see that, like as far as the "who" of who is responding to your message and your business, is it more, is it sort of that C-level, CEO or is it, I don’t know, Human Resources or is it all of the above? Um, is there, is there a certain person or persona that you feel like is like, ah, we need to get this done kind of thing?

April Wensel:  Yeah, I think given like my background and sort of my, the people I've attracted on Twitter and whatnot, usually the people who've reached out are engineering leaders themselves, whether they're just a manager, kind of middle level manager or the CTO. Uh, but that said, I also hear from HR as well because they're like, yeah, we have this huge problem in the engineering department. And uh, you know, cause the thing is there's so much emotional intelligence training already out there, but it's more general purpose. And to be honest, I know from being an engineer, we kind of tune that stuff out just because it seems irrelevant to what we do. And so that's the thing that I try to offer is like make it special for the engineers, like specific to the engineers so that they feel like it's somebody who's speaking their language. And I think that that helps ease them into this whole caring about humans thing. And so sometimes Human Resources will reach out as well. And then, you know, I will say too, also, I just hear from individuals who maybe can't hire me for the workshop, but they just, you know, appreciate the other content that goes out. Cause that's ultimately who I care about. And I'm very open about this. Yes, it's great when I can make companies more productive and that's why they pay for my services. But ultimately what I care about is the individual's happiness. And like if it's healthier for an individual to leave a company, then you know, I'm happy to support them in doing that. You know, my loyalty is always to the individual really.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, absolutely. No, that makes sense. I mean, ultimately it's, it's about who we are, right? And each and each of us individually as human beings and how we can be the best version of ourselves every day, you know?

April Wensel:  Yes. It's an ongoing process. Yes.

Heather Newman:  Absolutely. So, um, talk about the workshop a little bit or, or is it a set of workshops or is it one and will you tell everybody about how that works a little bit and what it's called?

April Wensel:  Yeah, sure. So part of my process is tailoring the curriculum to each client, which is why like instead of kind of doing a massive sort of corporate approach, what I've done instead is kind of a boutique approach in the sense that a company approached me, I have like in depth calls with them and people on the team, and then I shape a curriculum that addresses their specific needs. So for example, um, a recent workshop that I put together, it was called Leading with Emotional Intelligence. And it was specifically targeted towards technical leaders, meaning people who are, you know, engineering leaders and that sort of thing. I shy away from the term technical in general cause I think everybody's technical, but sometimes I use the language to communicate with people who use it. So, um, it was like directed towards engineering leaders and I do tailor it but usually it can be grouped into sort of three sections. We start off talking about the self because as we were talking about taking good care of yourself is so much like at the heart of all of this. Otherwise, you know, what are you doing? Like if you're not able to manage your own emotions and behavior, then it's really hard to lead anyone else. We always start with the self. Um, and that's something too that our society doesn't necessarily encourage. Looking Inward. It's sort of, sometimes people call it self-indulgent or you know, selfish or self-obsessed, but it's actually just so important and it helps you present as your best self. So anyway, so we start with some exercises around introspection and understanding how your own mind works. And so a lot of that's individual exercises to reflect on past actions. And things like that. And then once we've learned a bit about ourselves, then we move on to talking about communication with other people. So like I introduced the idea that all that stuff that you just found out about, like everybody else has a totally different set of like qualities and fears and preferences and all those sorts of things that are shaping how they're, you know, existing and behaving in the world. And then, you know, it's funny cause it's like a light bulb moment for a lot of people where they're like, oh, like not everybody cares about the exact same things that I do. And, um, you know, that they probably have a good reason for doing that weird thing they're doing and, cause it makes sense in their head. And so we talk about empathy and then we practice doing like, we practice through scenarios. So one thing I do is, uh, from the conversation with the company, I find out about specific scenarios that have happened there. Like maybe a conflict or like an awkward situation that got out of hand and then I try to come up with scenarios that are not that exact thing but similar to it. And then let people act out things around it and try to shape it into a healthier interaction to learn from it. And then ultimately we end with an action plan of some sort depending on the circumstances, either for the team or for the individual about how are we going to apply these principles going forward? Because one thing I remember not liking about some trainings is that it sort of felt like you were left hanging. Like you get a bunch of good information but then like how do you apply this on a daily basis? So I like to dedicate some time to like giving people a path forward and then I always stay in touch with clients so they can always reach out for like help troubleshooting, help implementing the practices. Because that's just so important to me. So I build that in because again, this is not just sort of a cookie cutter, like I just go there, present the same slides and then like leave, it's more like a relationship. And so, uh, so that's a big part of it too. And they're usually about half days. All the stuff I discussed happens in about a half day workshop.

Heather Newman:  Right. No, that's great. Yeah, I was, I was talking to some friends like, cause we play in a similar space, right. And um, as far as like workshops and working with people and you, you know, you're definitely targeting a different audience than I am, but it's similar work. And, I was laughing at like we were talking, I was like, yeah, you know, you can't just go in and be like, I'm going to throw a really cool Instagram quote up and then like hand you, you know, some self-help book and be like here, like watch my quotes and read this and you're going to be fine. You know what I mean?

April Wensel:  Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Heather Newman:  You know which, you know, those things are great as well, but you know, it is about scratching the surface and going deeper. And because I mean, I find that this work is, is so rewarding and wonderful, but it's also, it's tough, you know, like it's holding space for people's stories and you know, knowing, you know, that you're kind of a keeper of people's, some of their deepest, darkest fears and secrets. And, um, it seems that, you know, I, I've, you probably hear a lot of stuff. I would assume. A lot of stories.

April Wensel:  Yes. Yeah.

Heather Newman:  You know? Yeah. Do you find that like once, once you sort of are in there that people are willing to open up to you and talk to you about things as well?

April Wensel:  Yeah, they generally are. And I think it's because I try to be vulnerable as well from the start. So like, you know, one of the articles I have online is called Confessions of a Recovering Jerk Programmer, where I write about the ways in the past that I may not have been so empathetic and so caring about people. And it's a really vulnerable article where I talk about my own insecurities and how I projected those and all the other things. And so a lot of times I'll share tidbits from that in the workshops. And I think it's, it helps show that one that like everybody's human and we make mistakes and two, you know, we can learn from them. And so I think that helps open people up a bit more. But you're absolutely right. And I think, I mean, I feel honored that they're willing to share in that space because if they do share, it means I've done my job of creating a safe space for them to do that. And sometimes they share things that, you know, they never would've been comfortable sharing before, but if you establish that safe space, they do. And sometimes you can see the Catharsis, you know? And uh, yeah. So I, I'm sure you've seen the same thing and uh, yeah, I do find that that's, that is really rewarding as you mentioned.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, absolutely. I want to switch topics of smidge. And so, I, you know, have read obviously on social media and stuff, but you're talking about you're an ultra-runner and an ethical Vegan. Talk about that. That's, that's awesome. So yeah. Yeah. Tell everybody what that means.

April Wensel:  Yeah, thanks for asking. So, the, the ultra-runner means that I run ultra-marathons, which are anything longer than a marathon. So a marathon is technically 26.2 miles. And so, if you go anything more than that, you're technically doing an ultra-marathon. Uh, the ones I've done have been 50 Ks, which are like a little bit over 30 miles. Um, and yeah, they're, they're pretty intense and I'm a slow runner so I don't claim to be a fast runner. And so they took me about like eight and a half hours, which some people are more interested in, in just the length. That's like almost a whole work day of just straight running, which, but, um, but so it's funny cause I actually in high school I sort of in, in grade school, I hated running the mile. Like in gym class, like I like running around the track.

April Wensel:  Like, I got out of breath, my face got red. Like I was not in good shape at all. And it took me until my mid to late twenties before I really found that running can be good for my mental health. So, instead of like using it as a punishment or like, oh I have to do this to stay in shape, it was like, oh, this can be a pleasurable activity. And so that's what led into the ultra-running. And so, um, yeah it's like totally transformed my life and gave me more energy. So that's the running side. And the, uh, the Vegan side. So, you know, I mentioned that compassion retreat I went to, it was actually when I became Vegan that I went to that retreat. And thanks for asking about it. Some people shy away from it cause it's like sort of a niche thing.

April Wensel:  And so, I appreciate your asking about it. Uh, but yeah, it's just, you know, I'd always loved animals and so, you know, I did this reflection and I realized that my actions weren't aligned with this idea that I loved animals and I, you know, that I believed in like nonviolence and stuff. Cause I, you know, if I really gave it thought, I was like, although society says it's okay and like I grew up in Texas, so I grew up eating barbecue. I was like, I thought, oh this is totally fine. I realized that for me personally, it felt like I was out of alignment doing that. And so that's sort of what led me into going Vegan and then I, you know, read about it and everything. And, um, that's what introduced me to compassion. So it's actually, I mentioned it in my bio and stuff because it's shaped so much of my worldview now, um, having connected with animals because animals are easy to connect with, cause they're pretty innocent, you know? And so that was my pathway into learning about compassion. And I'm like, you know what? Human animals deserve this love too. So, I guess I should, you know, be nicer to people, so, yeah.

Heather Newman:  yeah, yeah. That's awesome. That's a great story. Yeah. You know, it's interesting being, uh, so I came up actually through the theater, so I have a theater degree and then I got into technology later after college and have always been, you know, I would say a marketer first, you know, um, but also technical having worked at Microsoft and then, you know, having to learn about all of those things coming up and, you know, running events and building content and all of that. And you know, I think there is, there is a funny thing sometimes between the marketer and the coder or the engineer, you know, where it's like, you know, marketers and sales people even, you know, we're, we're trying to sell and market the things that engineers, you know, dream up and, there's sometimes a divide there that it's like you're not technical enough, you don't understand. And then there's like, you don't even think about how people use things and you're building in a silo. And so I think breaking down that barrier is one that, do you find that there's some of that at the places that you go into as well?

April Wensel:  Oh yeah. So much like everything you're saying, I was just like nodding along here and thinking yes, yes. And it's, it's, you know, it's so unproductive too, right, because I mean, what you're describing is like just a lack of empathy and you see it from both sides, right? Where it's just like, you know, different priorities, different ways of looking at things. And then it translates into this like kind of headbutts sort of conflict where like, you know, you're just butting heads and not really understanding where the other person's coming from. And so, a lot of times I think that's why companies bring me in, you know, it's this, um, inability for the engineers to empathize with the non-engineers, you know, and you know, that's why I mentioned earlier briefly that I don't believe in this technical, non-technical divide because I think, you know, marketers for example, the ones I've worked with have all these spreadsheets where they're looking at the funnels, the people coming in and conversion rates and all this stuff.

April Wensel:  Like that's technical stuff, you know. Um, and so I think, you know, all that stuff is technical. So for me, I'm just like, all these people are doing great, important work and there's no reason for any to feel like superior and more important or like more, I don't know, more a top priority compared others in terms of their, um, their preferences and their interests. And so I think, you know, a healthy dose of empathy definitely is in order there. But it's such a good point. I mean, yeah. So thank you for bringing that up.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, sure. I figured that you saw that because I see it as well. And it's something, I, I have a software company and, you know, there's times when, you know, our lead developer and I, you know, I'm like, when can I announce it? When is it ready? When it, you know, well, you know, it's another , you know, and I'm like, well, even if we announced it, it doesn't have to be completely ready because people aren't going to be ready to buy it. You know, that sort of back and forth argument continues.

April Wensel:  So common.

Heather Newman:  Completely. Um, so, you know, you have, you know, I love, I, I got to look more up about some of the, I'm going to talk to you more offline about some of this compassionate workshops and training. That sounds really, really cool. But I was, I was curious, you know, you are obviously, you know, connected to a lot of people out in the world and are there other folks that you know, that you, like, who do you look to for inspiration and, like, are there people that other folks might be interested in in following that you're like, oh, I love this person for x or y or blogs or people on Twitter or anything like that, that really, that are like, that speak to you and your heart?

April Wensel:  Yeah, that's a good question. So, uh, you know, I really take inspiration pretty widely from across the board. A lot of the things I read and the things I like consume, I feel like are so out there that like a lot of developers, or people in tech of any sort would not even feel uncomfortable reading or consuming.

Heather Newman:  A little woo-woo?

April Wensel:  Exactly. Like I process it and then I like, I put it out like in my, my own way. Um, but, uh, I feel like they wouldn't directly, um, you know, identify with it. But, um, but you know, I will say that compassionate retreat was a big inspiration to me. And that was run by a woman named Pauline Patrick Goudreau and, uh, she, you know, uh, speaks a lot about compassion and she comes at it from the Vegan angle, but she talks more widely about like how to have compassion for, you know, everybody in our, you know, people we deal with and all the sorts of things. So, um, she, it was one of the original inspirations for me on those terms. But you know, um, I love, uh, you know, uh, the work being done by groups like Black Girls Code. I think that's a great one, a great follow on Twitter because they're doing so much to, to help diversify tech from all angles. So they, you know, they're trying to inspire young girls. I volunteered with some of their workshops before and they're doing such amazing work there. Um, because you know, you get tired of hearing from people in tech like, um, oh this is just not something like women are interested in or something like that. And it's just so not true. Cause you see, like these girls, they're so excited about technology and so that's a great follow on Twitter. Um, yeah. So, I mean those are two that come to mind on the spot. But yeah, I mean I, it's interesting because I feel like the most, like the people I follow, so like if I see somebody follow me and it's like a woman working in tech in some capacity, like I'll follow her back because I want to find out, you know, even if like I'm one of her like, you know, 10 only 10 followers because I want to find out like her perspective. And so I think a lot of people in tech could stand to, and especially people in the majority groups, like to follow anyone from groups that are not yours, you know? Um, because their perspective is going to be really beneficial. So those are the ones that, that I'd recommend. Sometimes that's where the most interesting anecdotes and just experiences come from. And it really does help you build empathy to, to hear from somebody else's experiences.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, absolutely. And I love how on your Twitter that you, I see that you do that, you know, and I do it too. I love that. It's like, sometimes it doesn't, you know, I don't care about like some like 15,000 and blah blah or whatever, you know? And sometimes it's that one person who's struggling, who just needs a little pick me up and, or I love how you, you'll see something from somebody's feed and then you'll comment on it or talk about it or give them some Kudos, you know, or, or give them a little nudge of like, yeah, you, you know, like. I think that's super cool. And, and the fact that, you know, you know, some of us who may have more followers or who are involved in things on a deeper level that you take the time to do that says a lot about who you are, you know, so,

April Wensel:  oh, that's so kind of you. Thank you. Well, yeah, I mean like, people have done that for me and I feel like, you know, I, I especially feel like, you know, because I have a certain level of privilege and things that it's, you know, I feel like it's my duty to help give back in whatever ways I can. And so I try to do that. Um, and I'm always trying to, you know, learn from it and trying to figure out better ways to do that. But, uh, but you know, I think we're all doing what we can and I love, you know, what you're doing with the show too, just giving, you know, a platform to people who, uh, who, you know, inspire you. And I love this idea of bringing more light to the world. Cause I think that's what the world definitely needs right now is a little more light.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, no mutual admiration club I think here I just, it's been, it's been fun to watch, uh, you know, get to know you a little bit more in all of that. And um, oh, I so, so as far as, uh, the Compassionate Coding goes, you're doing workshops and you obviously do consulting with folks and sort of, I would say coaching, you know, adding on, staying in and building relationships. Um, talk about your speaking a little bit too. So I know you're, you're a keynote speaker and you go in and do that. And so I talk about what you do there and maybe one of the last ones you did, if you would.

April Wensel:  Sure. Yeah. Um, so that is sometimes paired with the workshops. So the workshops are limited to about 25 people. Uh, and sometimes I do multiple ones, whereas the keynote presentations, like any number can attend. So a lot of times companies will have me do the keynote and then a follow up workshop for more in depth for a smaller audience. Uh, so I did one recently when I was over in London, um, for Bloomberg Technology and they tweeted about it. Um, so I feel comfortable talking about it cause they tweeted about it. Cause some of the clients, you know, I'm like, I protect their identity, but this one was public. Yeah, but they a, so I did a keynote there and again, I do the same thing where I like to tailor it to the audience. So the presentations I give at conferences are pretty different from the ones I give at companies in the sense that I'm able to make direct references to the company's culture and use the same language and make references to past scenarios that have come up. So I do the same thing where I tailor it and, uh, yeah, those are, those are really fun to do because, uh, again you get to speak to a large audience there and, um, you know, kind of show a perspective that they may never have heard before. So for me, the awesome part of that is hearing afterwards, like from people, women and people from underrepresented groups, a lot of times they're just like, oh, thank you for talking about this because, uh, we need to hear it, you know, things like that. And that comes from, you know, all kinds of companies. Um, and then from other people in like the majority group are like, Oh, thank you, I never thought about it this way. And so it's those two types of feedback that keep me going. Cause I'm like, Oh yes, like we're opening minds here. So, uh, yeah. And that happens at companies like large to small and, and, uh, conferences too. Um, and so that's a, that's the thing. But all the topics are in the general space of, you know, compassion, emotional intelligence combined with technology. But it can range from focusing in on like burnout and preventing that and how to manage stress, to like very specific how to do compassionate code reviews. So it sort of runs the gamut there.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, yeah. Like one of our speakers in the Microsoft realm. Um, Sonya, she had a talk last year that was all about burnout. And, the room, like, you know, it was about 150 and I think the room was packed to the gills. I don't even know how many people were in there, but it was just one of those where everybody came, you know, and it was one of those like, okay, this is obviously a topic that everybody's interested in. And do you feel, so I, you know, I belonged to many, you know, in the past, especially say even five or 10 years ago, you know, it would be women in x, you know, women in tech, women in drones, women in whatever, um, whatever the x might stand for. And I'm finding that, you know, we still have those groups and all of that, but I also find that kind of like what you're saying is that when you're brought in, not just for the women in, but you're brought in as a keynote or you know, brought into the like larger conference. We're, we're getting, I don't know, we're getting more of the conversation, you know, like we're getting the ally-ship we're getting. Do you find that there's less women in and more diversity and inclusion? Do you feel like there's a shift happening in how groups are put together and what you're seeing and who you're speaking to?

April Wensel:  Yeah. It's an interesting thing because you know, I see the value in both still because those "women in" groups definitely provide a safe space a lot of the times for, for women to express these issues and to feel like comfortable sharing things and everything and to swap stories and get like, you know, real talk advice about stuff. But that said, I think, you know, the other side's important too because for example, I'm usually not brought in by the women in x group because, uh, and when they do reach out, they usually don't have the budget to bring me in personally because like, it's like, honestly, because a lot of times those groups are sort of grassroots organizations and I they don't have the budget that like the engineering department has for training. And so it's usually, you know, says a lot there too. You know, we should be giving more funding to these women's groups, but more often I'll go in through the general engineering group because again, these principles apply to all. And I mean, that's the approach I've taken with my company is, you know, I'm trying, I'm working to appeal to all types, not just, you know, here's how women in tech can do better. It's more, you know, if anything, it's more emphasized on the other side. Like, I think most of the people who have reached out to me to hire me have been men, you know, in the majority group. And, uh, because they, they recognize that these skills will help them and their teams. And so I think there's a place for both. And I'm glad that we're having more of both, I would say. Um, and, uh, I think that's important. Um, because, you know, some, some women will say like, Oh, I don't speak at women in x things, which, you know, I respect everybody's choice and all of this, but I still do because I feel like sometimes you need to see people in a role that, um, can help you, like, be inspired to apply things to your life. And there are certain issues that I feel like, you know, women in that position can discuss that men in that position can't discuss. So I think there's a good place for both and I'm happy to contribute to both. And that's my attitude on it.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. I feel the same way. I, you know, it is one of those where we're constantly shifting, right. But also like respecting the fact that a lot of those grassroots efforts were what have, you know, launched all these other amazing efforts that have blossomed and bloomed. And like you said, understanding privilege and bringing along everyone into the conversation, you know, where something may have started one place and now it's, it's blossomed into something else. It's, I just, I find it all very exciting and, but, but definitely, yeah, both are so important. Um, you know, I always like to ask final question. Um, so you know, with doing this, what you do on a day to day basis with Compassionate Coding and that's compassionatecoding.com and you all should go right now to the website and sign up for April's newsletter to join the movement around that so you can hear about what she's doing and be informed. Can you go back to something that was like the spark? I love to figure out like what that moment or a couple of moments or someone or that spark where you were like, Yup, this is it. This was that moment that said, yes, I'm going down this path.

April Wensel:  Yeah. So, um, it's funny because I'd love to have a positive thing to share there, but it's actually, it's kind of a combination negative that led into a positive. Uh, I got fed up, so I was at my last tech company that I was working for someone else. Yeah. And I had been part of one of those grassroots organizations, uh, for diversity at the organization. And I got feedback in a one-on-one that people were afraid of me. Like meaning the other white male tech leads were afraid of me because I kept bringing up issues of diversity and uh, you know, like I'm a woman of small stature and I found it kind of amusing that people would be afraid of me first of all. But secondly, this is feedback that strong women get all the time. Like, if you speak up, you know, you're abrasive and whatever you're domineering or worse words. And so I got fed up and so when I got that feedback I was like, seriously? Like we have like an organization of 40 engineers and I'm the only woman. I try to speak up about it and people are afraid of me. It was just like ridiculous. So I got so frustrated that I was like, all right, I'm done. So I gave my notice that day, two weeks notice and I was like, I'm going to start a company to fix this because it's been bugging me throughout my career and I'm sick of it. So that was sort of why I left and decided to do my own thing. Cause I saw that the existing systems were not ones that I could thrive in. And so I had to create my own system that I could thrive in. And Compassionate Coding has been exactly that for me. Like I've been able to help others, but it's also just been personally renewing it for me. Like I used to be a Zombie, just like so burnt out from having to do all the emotional labor of being like a woman in tech. And now I have so much more control over my situation and I feel so much more empowered and I'm able to empower others, which all that does is help boost me up, you know, as well emotionally. So, uh, so that was sort of the spark was that was that one on one when I was like, seriously, this is, this is really going to be a problem here still? And so I was like, I got to start a company to fix this.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. Birds of a feather, my friend.

Speaker 3:        Yes, a common experience like that across the board.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. Yeah. No, I do. I think that there is a lot of like, you're too much. You're too heavy a crown to wear every day. You know, like could you tamp it down? Could you, you know, could you just stop bringing that stuff up? And, and I do think that, you know, that spark is a catalyst for a lot of folks, I think in this arena too, is that you see a problem. And also something that just personally that, you know, like being our true authentic selves is what we're meant to do. Right. And I think you know that there's a, do you know that, I'm sure you know that Maryann Williamson, who's also running for president, um, you know, that her, "Our Deepest Fear". Do you know that poem?

April Wensel:  yes, I do. Yes, about the light.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. About the light and about, you know, not, if you don't shine your light, then you're not inspiring others to shine theirs. So what are you doing tamping yourself down, you know, kind of the basis of that. And I kind of come, I go back to that a lot and what you just said made me think of that in a great way. So, yeah. Well, I gotta say I'm glad that you had a moment of feistiness and said, heck no.

April Wensel:  Thank you. It was a good one. Like I felt good afterwards. It's one of those things when you walk out, you're just like, yeah, I've taken back my power.

Heather Newman:  So yeah, so the invitation to I think, have other folks do that. April is amazing y'all. And she has a great website. And you have such a great, you know, Twitter following and I'm sure all the other social media stuff as well. So, um, yeah. Is there anything else you want to tell everybody about that you're doing that they can look out for?

April Wensel:  Oh yeah. No. If they subscribe to my mailing list at compassionatecoding.com, they'll get announcements about everything. And so right now I'm excited to be working on an online course to put some of the ideas I've been teaching in person in a more accessible format online. So that'll be announced through the mailing list soon, hopefully. So yeah, that's, that's Kinda the main place to go.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. Awesome. Well that's fantastic. So everybody, we'll put all the information about April and her website and her company in the show notes. And I just want to say thanks for being on. What a pleasure to talk to you. Finally, it's scope. Great. Yay.

April Wensel:  Well, likewise. Thank you for having me, Heather. It's been awesome and it's been great to virtually meet you.

Heather Newman:  Wonderful. Well, everybody that has been another episode of the Mavens Do It Better podcast. You can find us on all the usual spots on iTunes, on Spotify, on Stitcher, Google play, and on our website. And here is to another beautiful day on this big blue spinning sphere. Thanks everyone.

 

Episode 46: Tech Maven Sharon Weaver

Heather Newman:  Hello everyone. Here we are again for another episode of the Mavens Do It Better podcast where we interview extraordinary experts who bring a light to our world. I am super excited to have a great friend and colleague on today. She's a coach. She's a speaker. She's a consultant. She's a trainer and all around awesome gal. Sharon Weaver coming to us from Kansas. Say Hi to everybody Sharon.

Sharon Weaver:  Hello.

Heather Newman:  And where exactly are you in Kansas?

Sharon Weaver:  I live in a town called Lenexa, which is about 30 minutes away from downtown (Kansas City).

Heather Newman:  Okay, awesome. So Sharon and I have known each other for a long time now. Working with each other in technology and around that wonderful product called SharePoint. You know, I'm trying to figure out when we met, it's been a long time.

Sharon Weaver:  Yeah, it's been years. You know, I do this with a lot of people that are on the scene. I've just been rotating around so long we kind of meet at different events. Um, but being around for a while.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, absolutely. So you, you, you're, like I said, you're a coach, you're a speaker, consultant. So, and, um, will you tell everybody about the business that you, that you own and run cause it's pretty fabulous. Will you let everybody know what that's called?

Sharon Weaver:  Yeah. So I own a business called Smarter Consulting. Um, and basically it's an IT consulting business where I partner with a bunch of cool people and I try to help people solve their problems using technology.

Heather Newman:  Awesome. How long has that been in existence?

Sharon Weaver:  So Smarter Consulting itself I've been doing for almost a year. Um, I have been consulting on and off for probably the last 10 years, but Smarter Consulting specifically has been around just almost a year.

Heather Newman:  Right. Yeah, that, congratulations. That's a big, that's a big thing. You know? Starting something on your own. That's great. And I know you're really involved with, the SharePoint communities there. In what capacity are you leading community efforts? I know you do a lot in that realm.

Sharon Weaver:  So, um, I am the organizer for SharePoint Saturday Kansas City. This is our, I think it's our sixth year, um, that we have run it. Um, and so I run that whole thing. I've had various committees that have worked with me over the years. I have, um, a handful of volunteers who show up every year no matter what. But ultimately I'm the person who books the venue and pays the bills and make sure that it happens. Um, and I also run our local Office 365 user group and I've been doing that for about seven months. And, same thing, I have people who volunteer to help with odds and ends. Um, and I'm actually in the process with that one, of forming more, putting together a more formalized committee that'll help run it long-term. Um, but at the end of the day, I'm the one who makes sure that we have a place and we have speakers and we have something to eat and um, that everybody knows that it's happening.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. Yeah. I'm running the SharePoint Saturday LA and user group over here. Yeah, it's a big job. You know, I think people don't always see that, you know, it's something that we all do because we want to build community and love it, but we do it after, behind and beside our day jobs.

Sharon Weaver:  Absolutely!

Heather Newman:  yeah, absolutely. And so I think a lot of us came up in sort of different areas. In talking to different people on the podcast, you know, I talked to a lot of technology folks, a lot of our, a lot of friends that you know, and you know, for myself, like I, I have an arts degree and you know, Liz Sundet came up in the arts and I know you came up, um, having psychology, right?

Sharon Weaver:  Yes, yes.

Heather Newman:  So, uh, from the University of Kansas, so, you know, how did you get into technology from being a psych psychology major?

Sharon Weaver:  So, yeah, so everybody asked me that. I have like this really weird background. So, um, I tell people I have been, um, a techno crazy person. I love technology. I always have. Um, I kind of got addicted to it when I was about eight years old and they brought an Apple 2E to our classroom. Um, and within a little bit, within a few weeks, I kind of started figuring out how to, you know, take the stickers off the disks and things like that. Um, I could make computers and applications and programs do things that nobody else, they could barely leave and run them. And I was already making changes to them. Um, so we had computers in my house, basically my whole life, cause my mom was also, um, a tech junkie. I mean, she's super into new technology. Um, so she kind of brought it into our house all the time and so I got to play with it. Um, so on the personal side, I've just always been very, um, tech friendly, very into new things, um, and learn how to do a lot of it my own. Um, as far as my career and my education, I actually started out premed. Um, I had every intention of becoming a surgeon. Um, I was kind of thinking about maybe doing, um, neuropsychology or some sort of, you know, brain surgery. I thought that'd be super cool. And, um, so I started going to school and one of the things they recommended was having a year in the medical field while you're going to school to kind of get your feet wet. So I worked in pharmacy for the first seven years of my career. Um, and I got a developmental psychology degree and I, you know, throughout my whole journey and I started looking into going to medical school and I realized pretty quick that a pharmacy tech, uh, salary was not going to pay for medical school. And so, shocker, right? And, um, so I, um, started taking classes to learn web design. I started contracting on the side to make some extra money. Um, and long story short, I kind of got to a point where my IT career was, you know, paying me well enough that it just really wasn't worth my time and effort to go to medical school. And so I just kind of leaned more heavily into my IT career and let it go and kind of let go of the whole med thing and the rest was history.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I think, you know, that totally happens, I think when you start finding a path that may be different than what you thought and I don't know. Don't you feel like, I, I feel like I use my theater degree every day. I mean, you know, you probably use that psychology degree of yours everyday doing sales and creating marketing and all that stuff for your business, right?

Sharon Weaver:  Yes, absolutely. In fact, um, a few years ago, my husband, because my husband's super romantic for Valentine's Day, he bought me the URL, the domain, called the Devwhisper.com.

Heather Newman:  Oh, my goodness. That's fantastic. He's a sweetheart. I know Sharon's husband, Jonathan, he's a love. He's a sweet, sweet, sweet fellow. And I think, you know, a few years ago we all got to hang out, uh, during SharePoint Saturday Honolulu, which was really fun and did a lot of fun touristy things, uh, when we were there all speaking for a SharePoint and Office 365. So pretty cool. Um, so for you, you know, in the consulting business and you and I talked a little bit about this earlier before we got on the Pod, was that, you know, looking at sort of the landscape of what's happening right now, you know, as far as Microsoft technologies and what are you, what are you seeing the, the problems are, or the solutions that you know, you're coming up with for businesses that are either struggling with adoption or deployment and those sorts of things. What's the, what's, what's your landscape looking like?

Sharon Weaver:  Yeah, so I mean, I kind of get about half and half. About half of the people are kind of headed that direction and they really just need somebody to lead them in the right way. So I do you, you know, training and support around building a governance model and building user adoption. So for the people who really kind of have it pretty clear what they want to accomplish, it's really just coming in and kind of helping them strategize and answering questions and training their users. On the other side. We also get people, um, that where the landscape is changing so much that we have developers that are no longer able to develop the way they used to, I'm talking about SharePoint development, um, SharePoint administrators who for whatever reason, maybe they can't have the same level of privilege that they had before. And so, you know, it's, it's making them have to change how they manage their roles. Um, so a lot of it I think is, is getting people on the right track and helping them to understand what's out there. But the other part of it is there's a lot, you know, we joke about I'm using my psychology degree, there's a lot of therapy in terms of people understanding that there's a lot of change and that change is okay. And that as these things change, um, they're going to, they're going to be all right in moving forward in what it is that they're doing now as opposed to what they were used to doing maybe before.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. I think, yeah, I think you're on point with that. I think that there's a, there's a culture shift. I'm feeling that I'm seeing that I keep talking about, or maybe it's just me talking about it, but um, but about how we relate to each other as humans, but, but how we relate to each other as humans in our workplaces and looking for building, you know, more corporate culture, more employee engagement and what a healthy, you know, a healthy, trust-based workplace feels like, you know, to be in day in, day out. Are you seeing that as well?

Sharon Weaver:  Yeah, that was actually, so I've been having a lot of conversations with certain clients, um, that because of the way the administration rules have changed in Office 365 so if you think about it before, so we've got our SharePoint guy and he is the admin for the SharePoint, um, server, right, for the farm. Um, and really for the most part, they could do whatever they wanted short of, you know, maybe turning the server on and off or maybe doing some Windows updates or something like that. But for the most part, they kind of had way big control of everything. Now when you think about switching to Office 365, that same SharePoint Admin, even if he has SharePoint administrator rights, is not going to have the same level of access that he had in the old days with just SharePoint administration. Um, and so I think what's ending up happening is you're starting to see these people who have kind of been able to control their own little areas, having to start to trust members of their team to say, Hey, I need you to help me with this. Can you get it done? Or Hey, can, you know, can you do this thing and can you go troubleshoot this thing? They're having to interact I think a lot more than they used to. And they're having to architect how that works and they're having to task each other and they're having to communicate more. And it's definitely changed the dynamics of the administrators and the developers in general.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, I at a company that I worked for, um, I, at one point, you know, came in and you know, they were doing their thing and I said to my team, it was a marketing team. I said, hey, um, you all are all in the same office, uh, here. Do you, do any of you know, anybody who is in the support or IT team? Like, do you know them by name or like, can you stand up and point somebody out to me that you know, that, you know? And I got a bunch of blank stares. And I was like, Huh. Interesting. And so I was like, everybody get up, let's go. And so we got up and we walked over and I made sure we weren't interrupting things too much but, and said, hey, how about you all meet each other?

Sharon Weaver:  That's so great.

Heather Newman:  You know, and, and, and then I set up a lunch where we all like ate pizza and all of that kind of thing. And you know, even things like that that are, that you think, you know, I mean, okay, it's hard, companies are big. You know, you're not necessarily going to do that in a company of thousands and stuff, but it was a company of a thousand at that time and they were all in the same office and it was like, hmm. You know, like getting out of our, I don't know, cocoons and our small silos, you know, is, is about exactly what you're saying is that there's been a force, it's forced in a way because of the way the technology is evolving. But again, it's like remember that we're human beings working on all this stuff together. Right?

Sharon Weaver:  Exactly.

Heather Newman:  And connection is kind of the key.

Sharon Weaver:  No, that's so true. I mean, I think this is always been an issue in IT. Whether you're talking about, you know, quote unquote IT versus marketing or IT versus the business or IT versus communications is, is these silos that everybody feels like, you know, we're on these different teams and now it's almost becoming IT versus IT. And it's like, guys, we're all on the same team. Let's get to know each other, let's help each other out, let's not worry about kind of who's responsible for what. Let's just get it all done.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. And I think that there's like if you look at employees and a frustrated employee is not a productive employee. Right? And I think that sometimes the fear of asking a question because you don't want to look stupid or you've asked it before, is something that prevents a lot of that. And, and, and it's on both sides. You know, it's like, why does this person keep continuing to ask me this? I've told them 15 times and I can't remember, cause I'm so busy trying to sell stuff that I don't remember how to do that one thing. And then, you know, nobody's talking to each other because everybody's like, you're stupid and you're stupid and two stupids make lots of stupid.

Sharon Weaver:  Yes. It's just, you know, it's just people becoming defensive. And I think one of, you know, I'm dealing with this with multiple clients and it's really funny to me, you know, with all of this change, it's almost bringing team dynamics to a head. So things that were not an issue before are now becoming issues where they weren't before and they're having to deal with some of these team level resolutions to be able to move forward. And you know, some of them are doing a better job at it than others, but I definitely think it's forcing people to work together in a way that they've never had to do before.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, I agree with you completely. Well and I think there's a, you know, with a large focus on the word adoption, right. And um, and, and adopting software, uh, you know, that is, to me that's, you know, it's been digital transformation, but it's also that word adoption keeps cropping up. And I think, I don't know, you probably see this a lot cause you, you do that for living with your consulting, but do you feel like that word adoption is either just overused or not the right one? Or do you feel like that is on point and that it's something that we can all get behind to really make that change? You know?

Sharon Weaver:  No, I actually think adoption is exactly the right word. Um, so two of my kids are actually adopted and one of the, one of the things that I want to point out about adoption is that you are purposefully choosing to build a relationship with somebody who did not come to you organically. Right? And I think that when you go to look at software, these are things that are not organic as part of our daily lives. These are things that a lot of times, I would say more often than not, other people bring into our lives, but we are consciously making the decision of whether or not we're going to build a relationship with that application or not. Are we going to use it in our day to day life? Are we going to accept it? Are we going to be happy with it? Are we going to understand it? Are we going to be able to, to work with it on a regular basis? And so I think there's, there's more than just knowing that something is there. There's more than just somebody telling you this, here's this thing and you have to use it. I think it's purposefully and conscientiously making a decision that you are going to build a relationship with whatever it is that is being offered and then doing it. Right. So I think when we talk about adoption, adoption is definitely the right word. But I think the big thing that people forget about is that there's more to it than just pushing it in somebody's face and saying, here's this new thing. There's everything from educating it on what there is, giving them time to acclimate and get used to it. Helping them when they have questions. Um, and then also, you know, working through some of the emotions of this is a new thing and I feel kind of nervous about doing it and I don't want to fail and I don't want this to look bad at my job. And so I think there's all these different pieces that come into it, um, to help people be able to adopt new things.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. I just feel like I threw you the ball and you just made the three pointer. What a beautiful way to describe it. And I didn't realize your, your kids were adopted. That's super cool hun. I did not know that. So I didn't realize that. Yeah, I was like, that was the best description of adoption I've heard in a really long time. So, it got me a little misty. I can tell it also comes from the heart, so yeah. And it applies, right? It, it applies no matter what and whom we're adopting and bringing into our lives, um, on a day to day basis. Yeah, it's super cool. Um, I know you're also, you're, you're a teacher as well, right? And you, you teach at one of the, um, community colleges there.

Sharon Weaver:  Yeah. So, um, so, you know, cause I have, I don't really need to sleep. So this all came about. I mean, I've always been in roles where I'm the one that's doing the user adopting, right? Like I'm rolling things out to people and I'm convincing them that they need to love these things. And what I learned early on is that if I educated people on what was available and if I educated them on how to use it, um, that my user adoption rates went through the roof. Um, and so if people understand what it is and they feel competent in using it, they're much, much, much more likely to use it and they're much, much more likely to continue using it. So I did a lot of internal training for a lot of years. Um, and when SharePoint was kind of a big wig, um, about five or six years ago, it was like super-duper hot. The local college actually reached out to me and said, hey, we have all these SharePoint classes and you're one of the few people in the area that knows this really well enough that we feel confident that you can come in and teach people on how to use it. And so, I became adjunct at the local community college and I was just kind of doing evening and weekend classes, um, teaching people basically basics of SharePoint, how to install it, how to run it, how to use it, what they could and could not do with it. Um, and I have maintained an adjunct relationship with the local community college for about five and a half years now. And along that, um, when that was happening, um, SLU, St Louis University reached out to me. They have some classes at my local community college that they do satellite and they were like, hey, would you like to teach some classes for us? So, I teach some business analyst classes. I teach some leadership classes, I teach some six sigma classes. Um, just some odds and ends for them that are here. Um, and then that has slowly kind of grown into private corporate, um, training. And so I've done training for most of the large companies in Kansas City. Um, in fact, my very first gig when I left, um, my job job, my day job to go consult, um, I actually sold a 24-week training program for SharePoint for a very large company in Kansas City. Um, so that, you know, I, I do a lot of private corporate training to help people understand all this new stuff, you know, all, all of the different products and how they can use them and what they can get out of them. So, yes, I've been teaching, um, barely professionally. It's about, it's honestly, it's about half of my business. Um, and I've been doing that for about six years.

Heather Newman:  That's awesome. I knew some of that, but I didn't know all of that. That's super cool. Um, wow.

Sharon Weaver:  It's one of my favorite things.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, no, that's great. And do you find with the, so that's, you know, what we'd call I guess, in person training. Do you find that, um, like, do you stay on, you know, and, or do you, you know, like on a consultative basis, once you've done training, are you there for them sort of coaching along the way as well?

Sharon Weaver:  Yeah. Um, so, I mean it kind of depends, but I always, you know, leave my information and one of the reasons that the community college actually hired me as adjunct is they were looking really hard for people who could provide that follow-up afterwards. That's not in their wheelhouse. It's not something they wanted to sell, but they wanted to provide that to their students. And so, I find that out of every single class that I teach, um, usually a minimum of one person, built a relationship with me probably on LinkedIn or some sort of social media platform. We continue to chat, have conversations, and I would probably say easily half of the consulting work that I have gotten has been a result of one of those training classes in some place.

Heather Newman:  Wow, that's super cool. That's providing a service and getting, you know, getting some revenue out of it, that's a win win all around.

Sharon Weaver:  Yeah. It's just an opportunity to build relationships with somebody who has a need for a service I provide by maintaining that relationship, you know, it, it almost always turns into work and yeah. So I kind of joke that I get paid to do lead generation.

Heather Newman:  That's awesome. Well, and how cool that, you know, I think there's something, you know, we, we talk about building community a lot, um, in our realms and we've got, you know, SharePoint has one of the strongest technical communities I think in the world. And I think there's also something, you know, you speak all over the world and all over, you know, the United States, cause I've seen you in many, we get together in many different cities, uh, when we're both speaking on the circuit, you know, but I think there is something to, you know, I would call it a tactic, but I think it's less a tactic than it is just about connection and about the fact that you've built yourself all of these great relationships in your community for your community, um, that, that helps people right there, you know? Um, that's, there's something to that that I think a lot of people miss sometimes when they're, you know, trying to boil the ocean and, you know, sometimes it's just about the creek behind your house. Right, that you want to connect to.

Sharon Weaver:  right. I think a lot of people, the technology comes first and the people come second. And I'm not going to judge that because for some people technology is their passion. For me, people has always been passion and technology is always second. That doesn't mean that I'm not good at it. It doesn't mean I don't understand it. It doesn't mean I want to, you know, that I don't learn it. But, first and foremost, my, my purpose in life is to help other people, to help solve their problems, um, to help encourage them along their path to help them, you know, whatever it is that they're kind of going through. And second of all is, is technology. But the great thing about putting those things together is that I am able to do my life's purpose by using technology to help people solve problems. And that can be problems all over the place. Um, but I think when you put people first and everything else comes second, um, that those relationships happen, and you’re not focused so much on what am I trying to force them to use. But what is it that they're dealing with? What is it that they're going through? What kind of pain do they have that I can help them solve the problem? And when you look at it that way, um, I feel like the marketing and the sales afterwards is just super easy because you're just helping them solve a problem. And that's how I always look at it.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, no, that's a great way to look at it for sure. Um, so I'm going to switch topics a little bit. Um, so for someone who is busy, uh, coaching, instructing, consulting and being wonderful, um, how do you, how do you find time for yourself? How do you find time to get away from things and, uh, like be creative and be inspired and be refreshed? What are, what are your things that you do?

Sharon Weaver:  So, um, I was a workaholic for a very, very long time. Um, and there was many, many years that I was working 40, 50, 60 hours a week and not taking vacations and about, um, I want to say it was been 11 or 12 years ago. My best friend was like, you have to go on this group cruise I'm doing. Um, all my friends are going, you're going to love it. It's going to be a blast. And she just sells me and sells me and sells me on this cruise. And she would not shut up about it. Like she talked about it for weeks and weeks and finally, and I'm telling my husband about this and he's like, yeah, let's do it. That sounds great. You know, let's just go have a good time. And I'm like, fine. And so this is, you know, 12 years ago, workaholic me was like, fine, I'll take a week to go on a cruise. You know? So they pulled my arm, um, and over Labor Day weekend, you know, I couldn't go on a regular week cause that would mean missing work. Um, I went on this cruise with my best friend and her friends and I just had a blast. And the reason I think it was such a big deal to me is because I was so plugged into everything that when I'm went on that first cruise, um, there you could not use your phone. It was, it just was absolutely outrageous cost wise to turn your phone on at all. So I shut my phone on off. I stuck it in the safe for a week. Um, and I went on this cruise and for the first time in a very, very long time, I experienced pure relaxation. Um, lots of sunshine, which we, I don't know if you know much about Kansas City, but, um, we're very, very overcast most of the year, so we don't get a ton of sunshine. So I got a lot of sunshine. I got really good solid sleep. I got some really good solid food. And also we took our kids and for the first time we went on a vacation where I wasn't stressed about what we were going to pay for because it was all paid for out front. And so I developed this love of cruising. And, uh, in May, I went on my 23rd cruise.

Heather Newman:  What? Oh wow. That's amazing.

Sharon Weaver:  I know. So I've averaged about two cruises a year for the last, you know, 12 years or so. So I mean, everybody's like, oh my God, you're always on vacation. I'm like, I swear I take like two weeks a year. It's really not that big of a deal. Um, but I try to take about two cruises a year. Sometimes it's a weekend cruise, sometimes it's a week-long cruise. Um, and I just, you know, you can get WIFI a lot cheaper now. But truthfully, I'm really just happy kind of turning my phone off and laying on the deck and enjoying the sunshine. Um, and really just being away from everything for a few minutes, just completely disconnecting and not having technology for a week or so. And I think it gives me time to just let my brain recharge and my body recharge. So yeah, somewhere sunny and ocean and happy for a couple of weeks a year.

Heather Newman:  So, since you've been on so many cruises now, that's amazing. And I'm so happy to hear that you do that one. And so, um, I think, you know, I may call you a cruise maven so that you know so much about it. Um, you might now get people knocking on your door to ask you about how to do it

Sharon Weaver:  you know, that's actually totally fine. Um, I've had a lot, over the years, you know, standing in line getting for a cruise and people are always like, oh, this is my first cruise. I'm like, okay, here's what you got to know. Right? Um, and then it grew into people watching my posts on Facebook. Um, and I'm actually going to start posting a lot more stuff on Instagram and I'm going to move my travel stuff out of Facebook and into Instagram because it's gotten kind of heavy. And people ask me questions about it all the time and I really enjoy answering their questions. Um, I've taken a few people on either their first cruise or a cruise to kind of teach them kind of how to, you know, how to get out there and how to do stuff and how to enjoy it. Um, and starting next year I'm going to start doing group cruises, uh, at least once a year where I'm just going to basically take a group, um, whether it's your first time, whether you've been before and you just want to go with a group or whether you just want to go with somebody cause you've never done it before. Um, I'm basically going to lead some small group cruises where I can show people the ropes and see, let them see how good of a time it is. Um, let him know if cruising is for them or not. But, um, I think it'll be a good time. So I don't mind if people ask me questions at all. I could talk about cruising all day long.

Heather Newman:  That's so exciting. That's awesome to take something that you know, was a way to, you know, that your friend was like, you must do this and now look, you know, you're going to help other people have a little bit more balance. Right? So that's so exciting. I'm really so excited to hear that. That's great. Yeah.

Sharon Weaver:  You’re going to have to come on one of my cruises.

Heather Newman:  Okay. Yeah. I, I'm, yes, I, I've, I've only been on one and I did really enjoy it and, uh, so yeah, I've always thought, you know, I do know, I think he's still the CMO of Viking River cruises and I've always thought that those are super interesting too, you know.

Sharon Weaver:  Yeah, fancy.

Heather Newman:  those are, yes, those are kind of fancy, I guess. But, um, but yeah, the, the, my, I think my, my folks like cruising, they do that a couple of times a year too. So, but yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm game for sure. So, you know, speaking of sort of inspiration, passions and all of that, um, where, like what do you read, look, who's your favorite person? Maybe, or, and you don't have to say just one, but you know where if it's on Instagram or if it's a blog or, or something like that that you know, is a go to for you when you're like, I just need something awesome to get me through what's going on. Is there something or someone you can point out to that you could share with everybody where, where you go to for that type of thing?

Sharon Weaver:  I follow a lot of different stuff. Um, I try really hard to kind of limit it to kind of some primary ones and then I kind of dabble a little bit cause otherwise it just takes up a little bit too much bandwidth. But I will tell you one person that I have followed since the very beginning of his career, it's Zen Habits. I think it's Zenhabits.net. Um, but he's Leo Balboa and he is phenomenal. He has written mindfulness. Um, I probably followed it for 10 years easy. Um, and I know, he's one of the few that I allow his blog to come to my email, um, because it's so good. And he, I mean, obviously he does have some guests writers, occasionally things like that, but his content is just always fantastic. He always just says exactly what I need to hear. Um, and it's just really about, um, focusing on what you're doing right now and making sure that you're not letting all the other little stuff kind of come into to spoil that. Right? It's not getting so distracted that you can't focus on what it is you're trying to accomplish. Um, but I love Zen Habits. Um, there's a site called Tiny Buddha with a, a big, uh, it's a number of writers, but it's a lot of women writers. Um, and they talk a lot about, you know, once again, um, purpose and mindfulness and things like that. Um, and, uh, I, know this is kind of Cliché, but I love Bob Proctor. Um, he's just amazing. So I love all the law of attraction people. Um, anybody who's into mindfulness and Buddhism and things like that. I'm not a Buddhist, but I do love the mindfulness concept. Um, and I just, you know, a lot of kind of good feels. I'm all about the good feels, so I follow a lot of like positive affirmation and um, enlightenment posts and things like that on, um, all of the various social media channels.

Heather Newman:  Right. Cool. Those are all cool, I've heard of some but not others. That's awesome. I'll make sure to put those in the show notes for our listeners. Um, so last, last question for you. Um, I am always interested in that moment or spark, um, that happened in someone's life of like, that like springs you to, to do what you do to be who you are is, is there someone or something that you can remember that you want to share with our listeners about that moment when you were like, this really catalyzed me or made me go, oh, Yep, this is the way that I want to go. Is there anything you can think of that, that might fit that bill?

Sharon Weaver:  I, you know, I don't, I don't know that there's been a specific catalyst. There might have been a lot of them, but I will tell you, and I know you know him, but I'm going to give a little bit of a shout out because I think throughout the entire time of my entire journey, my husband has basically been my biggest groupie. I know he knows that and I know he says it, but when you have gone through some of the craziness that we've gone through and being a woman in technology, and it's so great that he's in technology too, because we can speak the same language. Um, but he has, throughout this entire journey, every time I've said, I think I want to do this, he goes, do it. I'll make it happen. Just do it. And, um, no matter what, no matter how crazy it gets, I'm like, I'm like, Hey, what do you think of this? Every once in a while, I can always tell because hell kind of give me that funny look like, I mean, I trust you, but... Truthfully, he has been there rock solid. We've been married for 27 years this year. We've been together for 30. Um, and he has just been rock solid by my side the entire time. I don't know that there's really been kind of like a catalyst. There's a lot of little ones that had happened along the way. But when it comes to why I am who I am, I think he's a big part of it.

Heather Newman:  That's amazing. I love that. And he's such a love so that I, you know, that makes sense. And congratulations on anniversaries and stuff. That's a long time. And that's, relationships go through those roller coaster moments and you know, hanging on together and having, you know, one hand on the bar in one hand up in the air, you know, that's what you want. Right?

Sharon Weaver:  Yeah. And having a husband that was really excited for his wife to be gone all the time, work all the time, learn new technology, work in a very male dominated industry where I was the only girl, travel with a ton of men for all of these things. Um, and then also, um, I mean in general, I have earned more than him almost my entire career. And for a lot of men that could be debilitating or it could be something that would really, you know, be hard on them. And he has just cheered me on and cheered me on and cheered me on and said, no, go get him. Like, you can do this and I'm here. So, it's kind of a big deal.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, no, it's a huge deal. And I've been with him and heard him do that about you and around you and even when you weren't in the room, you know, so I, big, big Kudos over there to him for that. So for sure. That's awesome. Well, I want to say thank you for being on the call. It's always so good to connect with you and talk with you and I'm so glad you've got a chance to come on the podcast. So thanks for sharing everything you did today with us.

Sharon Weaver:  Thanks so much for having me. This is fantastic. And I think you're kind of awesome too, so,

Heather Newman:  well thank you. The feeling is mutual as they say, so I appreciate that. Well everyone, um, that has been another Mavens DO It Better podcast, and you can find us on all the normal areas where you look for us: on our website, on iTunes, on Stitcher, on Spotify, and Google Play. And here is two another beautiful day on this big blue spinning sphere. Thank you.

 

Episode 45: Museum Maven Adam Smith

Heather Newman:  Hello everyone. Here we are again for another episode of the Mavens Do It Better podcast where we interview extraordinary experts who bring a light to our world. I could not be more excited to have a friend and colleague on today, Adam Smith who is the executive director of the Comic-Con Museum at Comic-Con International. And uh, if you know anything about the world right now, you know, there is a big gearing up because Comic-Con is coming up starting on July 17th, 18th 19th and 20th, that whole weekend. So there's a lot of excitement and I'm so excited to have you on. So Adam, say hello to our listeners. If you would please.

Adam Smith:  Hello Heather, hello listeners.

Heather Newman:  Hello. Adam and I got the chance to meet a couple of years ago. I got the privilege of uh, being a, a panelist, uh, a moderator for a panel on Comic-Con a couple of years ago and am again this year. And I've been working with the WonderCon team as well. So and I actually came down and saw the museum, um, with you, gosh, sometime last year when there was not a whole lot there. And, uh, will you tell everybody a little bit about the museum specifically and what's going on, um, with the building of that beautiful new place that would be awesome.

Adam Smith:  Sure. Um, I guess the story goes back two or three years. Um, Comic-Con were given the opportunity to take over the lease of a really nice building in Balboa Park, which is sort of the cultural heart of San Diego. There are already 17 museums there. And the city approached comic con and said, we know you sort of hypothetically been interested in having a permanent year round Comic-Con museum, but we have this awesome building and, and we can, we can let you have it basically free of charge if, if, if you're interested. So, um, that led to, um, me sitting here today, you know, sort of halfway through the, the journey of creating that museum. Um, I am a lifetime museum person. Um, comic-con recruited me, um, because I, I worked in museums and developed several museums from scratch previously. Um, so I've been working on the project for 18 months. There are 10 of us now on the museum staff and we're here to open the museum by May of 2021, so just under two years to go. Um, although we have the building, we do need to do a lot of remodel and repair and refurbishment to, uh, the building that was constructed in 1935. We've got 16, we got 16,000 square feet. And the, the, the ultimate goal is to sort of transform it into this pop culture wonderland that captures the magic of Comic-Con all year round. Um, and as we head into Comic-Con this year it's kind of exciting and kind of daunting for us because we decided a couple of months ago that we were going to essentially create a pop-up museum this year. So, um, for us, it's a really great opportunity to do a test of what it will be like to have the ultimate thing and test the location with, um, Comic-Con fans and things like that. So, um, yeah, so we're having, we're, we're talking basically, you know, right in the, roughly in the middle of what will ultimately be a three or four year journey to build this, this wonderful museum.

Heather Newman:  Right. Yeah. And you made that announcement today that the museum will be open, the pop-up, throughout Comic-Con and you don't have to have a Comic-Con ticket and it's free for anyone to come check it out. Correct?

Adam Smith:  I said to everyone, I have this podcast that I'm doing with Heather tonight, so we've got to get this announcement out so that we can talk about it.

Heather Newman:  Perfect. I know you sent it to me, and I immediately tweeted it. I was like, oh my goodness, this is so exciting. So, uh, that's so great. Yeah. And uh, I see you have a Paint Like Bob Ross. That's so cool. A make and take class.

Adam Smith:  Oh, interesting that that's caught your attention. I think we can probably talk about several of the features of this pop up museum. You've noticed that we're doing some Paint Like Bob Ross classes and um, there is a little bit of, you know, there is some thought behind that. Um, in the sense that we want the museum to be many things. We want it to be an awesome place to visit, you know, for young and old, and we want it to be a place that you can come and have a shared experience of watching a movie or trivia or see great exhibits and attend great panels and things like that. But we also want it to be an educational place and a place that people can come and be creative themselves and not just to consume the creative works of others, but to actually be inspired to create things.

Adam Smith:  So, as we were putting this popup museum together, I wanted to try and bring in different elements of what the museum will be. So we've got a beautiful art gallery show in the museum because we're going to be a place where people can see and appreciate the pure art of popular culture. But I also wanted to do something that was creative, where people could come and make art and, and uh, and then the Bob Ross, uh, folks walked in the door and said, hey, are you interested in doing something? And we thought, perfect! We'll all be making little happy trees.

Heather Newman:  Right. That's fantastic. Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, the art of Comic-Con 50 and it's the 50th anniversary of Comic-Con as well. So you get to, and that's part of that art exhibit as well, right?

Adam Smith:  It is. Actually, for the, for the ultra-precise people. It's the 50th Comic-Con. The 50th anniversary technically is next year. So, the first Comic-Con was 1970 and so, and this, if you count the years, this is the 50th, this is the 50th one. So maybe the best way to put it is that the 50th Comic-Con this year leads into the 50th anniversary of Comic-Con next year.

Heather Newman:  Perfect. Yeah. And we need to be clear about that because we know how Comic-Con folks are about the precision of the details, which I completely appreciate. Yes.

Adam Smith:  Either way. Um, we, we, we, we actually put it together and launched this in the museum in March. Um, we, we did the first opening of this art exhibit where over the years Comic-Con has created a, a program, event guide, um, or program book every year. And it has commissioned a piece of art to go on that cover. And it has created this wonderful collection of art works from, from many of the most famous comic art creators of the, the last couple of generations. So we, um, we staged that as a show early in the year. It's only been open occasionally at weekends. Um, but it's been very popular for the times that it has been open. Um, but we, we saw, you know, we saw the opportunity to, to throw the doors open to everyone that's coming to Comic-Con this year. And uh, one of the things we're adding to the show is, um, it's broken on social media over the last 10 days or so that Jim Lee, uh, created a really amazing program book cover for this year. As you're probably aware, it's highly unusual for characters from different, um, organizations to appear in the same piece of art. It's very rare that you would see, you know, Marvel and DC characters all, all commingling with um, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and et Cetera, et cetera. And Jim is not just a fantastic artist. He's a, you know, is fantastically well connected and was able to persuade everyone that for the 50th Comic-Con, it would be really cool if everybody, all the companies, all of the great characters in comics could be in the same picture. So, it's, it's been extremely well received by our fans. And we're going to show the original piece of, the original piece of Jim Lee art is being brought into the museum. Which I'm really excited to see.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, that's great. Well and when you and I met last year, um, and I came down, we were talking with and you know, it was super cool, thank you for inviting me cause that was really neat. Like looking and talking to folks about sort of all the, you know, experiential and interactive areas of the museum. And I know that's a big part of what you're thinking about of how, you know, how when somebody walks in, you know, what the experience is and, and um, you know, my theatrical brain, you know, was like going crazy and tech and, and have you made more decisions like I, the like I know there's, you've got the Batman Experience that's interactive and immersive and I take it you've made some decisions because you have that and you're going to show it off. Is that kind of a test run for some of those experiences that you were thinking about back then?

Adam Smith:  Yeah, it's, as we think about the museum, we've got a very large and diverse audience. And, um, what we're trying to do at Comic-Con this year is throw some things out that we think, you know will appeal to all the different parts of the audience. And one of the expectations that it's very clear people have about a Comic-Con museum, is if somehow, they, they feel that it needs to be technologically interesting, you know, somehow at the cutting edge. So, um, we've talked already about, you know, we want to have that creative piece and that the Bob Ross, we want to have that art piece which is the Cover Story gallery. Um, but we, we also want to have some experiential stuff in there and some, some technology, et cetera. Um, one of the really nice things that came together this year is that originally we were just planning to have a big event on the opening night of Comic-Con.

Adam Smith:  We are, we are raising money to build the museum. And I, I wanted to have a fundraising event where we could, you know, bring people in and have an auction and things like that. What came together there was that we, we were able to, um, find some, some great connections into Warner Brothers and DC and we, um, you know, we, we sort of got down this path of, of realizing that we could put a pretty awesome Batman display together, for the fundraising event. Um, and then what happened was the AT&T, which is the parent company of, of uh, Warner Brothers and DC, um, sort of independently was thinking about doing something relative to Batman because it's the 80th anniversary of Batman this year, was thinking about doing something that was sort of an activation and tech based and things like that somewhere in San Diego.

Adam Smith:  So, we realized there was an opportunity to bring that, bring AT&T together with DC and Warner Brothers and just do this sort of massive Batman thing. Um, though I do want to thank those organizations because they've been tremendous partners in the sense of, um, really bringing, bringing into our museum something we just couldn't possibly have done on our own. We're a tiny staff just trying to, you know, bring a, bring the museum to life. But, um, that this whole idea of a popup museum has come because the, the, the strength of the, you know, being able to go into the Warner Brothers archives literally and say, you know, they were basically saying, all right, choose what you want to bring to San Diego. A bunch of, uh, geeks and museum people liked to be able to look at every Batman costume ever. And we could choose, um, you know, however many we want. So it, it's all come together in a really kind of fun, really fun way. And, um, so the, this, this Batman Experience powered by AT&T, that's sort of, um, a big component of the museum, um, during Comic-Con is, um, really quite a significant collection of artifacts, but they've been able to bring some of these more experiential, um, elements into it that tech based. There's a video gaming component, where we're looking at, um, you know, how Batman has been covered in video games past, present and future and um, and things like that.

Heather Newman:  Wow, that's cool. So the, if folks are interested at a first look at exhibits, there's the Gathering, which is the inaugural fundraising event and that's the Wednesday, July 17th. And that's a ticketed event, special ceremony. And we'll put it in the show notes, the CCMgathering.org. So that's, that's one piece. And then obviously the open pop up for everybody else during Comic-Con, but there is a, if anybody is interested in the inaugural event and helping do some fundraising for the museum, that is available to everyone as well. So just to be clear, it's always good to be clear about that kind of stuff.

Adam Smith:  So, something I haven't, well we haven't talked about it that this pop-up museum that is running, um, Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday. That is free of charge. And um, and also that you don't need a Comic-Con badge, um, to enter. If you have a Comic-Con badge, that's awesome, you're welcome too, but one of the things we wanted to do here was provide something for, you know, they're, they're often fans coming into San Diego that they might have a Thursday and a Saturday badge, but they don't have a Friday badge. You know, and they need something to do, but also we wanted to, to, um, to invite the community of San Diego into the museum as well. The, the community has been very supportive and welcoming of the effort to create a museum.

Adam Smith:  So, we just wanted this to be for everyone. Um, and it, it, it truly is a test. We don't know exactly how it's going to go. We're prepared for a lot of, if a lot of people come, we've got contingencies to, you know, to handle, you know, reasonably large crowds and get people through. yeah, it's, it's speaking to you sort of two weeks ahead of it actually happening, or two and a bit weeks. It's, it's slightly daunting, but you know, there's like an, there's an excitement for around that. I guess we are, we're asking people to, if, if it, if there are any issues, you know, remember that this is, this is not the finished museum, this is, this is us almost doing a Beta test to use one of your technology terms of what a Comic-Con museum could be. And um, it, for me, this is the, this is the third museum that I've developed from scratch but it's the first time I've had this sort of a sandbox, to play with, you know, and it's really valuable. I think it is going to help us make the museum even more awesome.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, for sure. I mean in technology, it's Beta testing. If it's in the theater, we're doing, you know, some previews, right. We're getting ready for our dress rehearsals and opening night coming in 2021 so yeah. And yeah, like why not pop it up and give, get some feedback and see what people like and yeah, I you don't often get that chance sometimes with things. So that's really exciting that, you know, you're getting to do that. Uh, Oh, you know, I wanted to ask you about something else, uh, related to the museum. So, uh, I'm a member of the Peterson Museum as well and oh my goodness, I haven't gotten there yet, but will you talk a little bit about the Hollywood Dreams Machines exhibit that's there, cause that totally connects to all of this as well.

Adam Smith:  Absolutely. And thanks for giving, giving me the opportunity to talk about that. Um, we were approached about a year ago by the Peterson Museum up there and in LA, which is a tremendous first class auto museum. You want, you want, you know, I'm a career museum guy and I've, I've been to a lot of different museums and the Peterson, you know, always is fantastic. And yeah, they came to us and asked if we would collaborate on an exhibit that featured, um, cars from science fiction and from Hollywood. So, um, Keegan, one of the museum's staff, really, really jumped on that opportunity. And, and for me it was great to give Keegan the opportunity to, to work on a major exhibit. Um, he learned a lot from the process and that we’ll be able to flow into Comic-Con museum, but, but also in the back of our minds, I think we have, we're feeling that this exhibit ultimately, or some, some version of it will appear down in San Diego.

Adam Smith:  Um, anyway, Keegan had been working on it. And I went up to the, uh, the exhibit opening, it was on May the 4th, which is a very memorable day for anyone who knows pop culture. Um, and I was absolutely blown away by the exhibit. I mean, I already had a high appreciation for, uh, um, the Peterson Museum but, you know, I've worked on a lot of museum exhibits in my life and you're always looking to have a few kind of hits, you know? Sometimes to fill out a really large exhibit space you've got to have some album filler, you know, but this exhibit at the Peterson is hit after hit after hit after hit, you know, you just kind of walk through and it's like, wow, there is the DeLorean from Back to the Future. Oh, and there is the Land Speeder that we used in the original Star Wars. And there is The Batmobile from 1989.

Adam Smith:  And you, you just literally go through a series of 50 or 60 vehicles going (astounded sound) you know? So I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm encouraging everyone to go there because it's, uh, it's, it, they, they did a really good job. And if you, if you, if you like cars and you like movies and science fiction, you know, this is one not to miss. I'll tell you who went to it, we, I follow the blog of, uh, George R. R. Martin, the author of Game of Thrones. And I was so tickled to read on his blog him writing this gushing positive review about the Peterson exhibit. It was like, wow, we did something that, you know, that was appreciated by this genius.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, yeah. How wonderful is that? Yeah, no, it's cool. It's so cool. And I love the fact that you've, you know, I mean, it's so great when other people are like, hey, we have this really cool space and why don't you put something in it. You know, the collaboration of artists and people who all have a shared passion and love. Like I just, it's so great. And LA seems to do that a lot. You know, like the Los Angeles, even California community is, you know, really coming together and saying, Hey, you know, let's, let's do some things where we celebrate all over the place, you know, which kudos around and so yeah, it's like 40 different vehicles across 50 or 20 different movies across decades. And I'm looking, I'm looking at the, and I think, does Bumblebee actually transform in it? That's nuts. If that actually, yes, I see this, I see the video.

Heather Newman:  Oh, my goodness. I, yeah, y'all, you need to get to the Petersen museum and check this out too. That's so exciting. Wow. You know, um, you know, you, we've been speaking about, um, being, you know, a lifetime museum fella. Um, I'm wondering, would you talk a little bit about where you got started doing that? Cause I know you've, you know, you have, I mean just looking at, you know, we've talked about it a bit and just, you know, you know, if you look you up on LinkedIn and all that, you can see that, you know, you gosh did so much, especially sort of in, you know, in flight, a lot of your background has been in flight. Will you talk about how you got started doing all of this? Like go, go way back a little bit if you wouldn't mind.

Adam Smith:  Oh, you want to go way back. For me it begins, it begins as a child and I just had a fascination with the past. My whole life. I was, my accent is English and I was born and raised in a country that is full of history and knowing the landscape and then the stories that you'll family tell about the wars, and you know, and all of these, all of these things, and I was just, even as a five year old child, I remember going in the garden digging for pieces of old pottery. And just being fascinated by the thought of who might have left it there and you know, things like that. So I think my connection to, to the past is strong and deep and wherever I've gone in life, you know, that that's the sort of central thing. And um, eventually there comes a point in life where you've got to decide what you're doing as a job.

Adam Smith:  And there was this clear, clear sort of choice for me. It was either work in museums or become an archaeologist. Um, and I was accepted into two really awesome universities. And, um, the thing that took me down the museum path was I, it, I was at, it was Saint Andrews in Scotland, which is this beautiful medieval city sitting right there, um, on the coast of the North Sea. And I fell in love with the place when I went there. And that was the, you know, that sometimes you look and there’s a fork in the road and it's like, well I'm doing museums cause I have to live here, um, if I got the chance. So I ended up basically, um, doing, uh, doing a museums, museum studies degree at Saint Andrews. And that then led me to, you know, working on all kinds of crazy places that I've done farming and, uh, coal mining.

Adam Smith:  And, and as you've said, I ended up doing a pretty significant diversion for 15 years into airplanes. Um, so I ran three aviation museums, um, first in Scotland, then in Wisconsin, and then, um, while I was developing one in Dallas, which is where I came to Comic-Con from. So, um, one of the things on my journey that I think caused the Comic-Con opportunity to, to really catch my interest was, well there were two big things when, when, when the phone rang and someone said, hey, this Comic-Con thing is available. Are you interested? There were two big things about it that appealed to me. One was that it was in Balboa Park, San Diego. Um, because I knew that that was this really fantastic cultural place. And if I've learned one thing from 30 years of working in museums is that location is absolutely fundamental.

Adam Smith:  You can pick, it will make you or break you. And I know for a fact that Balboa Park as a location is a great location and you know, we can be successful there. The other thing that appealed to me was, it's Comic-Con, you know, and great, a great energy and a great thing. But, specifically, 20 years ago I worked on an exhibit called Game On, which was the first major touring exhibit ever done on the history of video games. And I consider myself, you know, sort of a first generation video game kind of nutcase. And I really enjoyed that exhibit. I really enjoyed working with something that was actually, when we were doing that exhibit 20 years ago, people are like your nuts. Video games don't have a history and this is, this is not worth investing a lot of money in and things like that. But it was super successful cause we, we sort of, you know, you, you're tapping into sort of a nostalgia. And so for me, one of the great joys of working with Comic-Con is that I feel that I'm every day working in that kind of energy. Um, where, you know, I, I, it, I'm inspired by the passion of the people around me. If that makes sense.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, of course it does. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's interesting that that was then, and you know, now it's just such a, you know, Comic-Con and I'm sure the museum itself, right? Like Comic-Con has changed over the years from, you know, really being about comics and comic books. And I mean, now we have like giant, like Warner Brothers and other companies, you know, launching movies and launching series and there's so much that is a part of Comic-Con now that's of culture that, you know, gives a place to folks that, you know, like just walking through, you're like, oh, there's the people that make Dungeons & Dragons super cool tables that you can have in your house that you can like, you know, move and it's the, you know, the, the, the Dungeons & Dragon game underneath. And then you can have it be just a nice table or, you know, like there's so much. Right. That's a part of it now that maybe wasn't years ago. Right. And watching that change. Um, wow. So I guess for you being a museum person, are there, you know, you, you talked a little bit about, are there other places that you've been recently that have gotten you excited that you're like, oh, I love the way they curated that or something that happened that you've seen. I mean, you've been so busy, but um, but anything that comes to mind.

Adam Smith:  Heather, if you toss me a question like that, how long do you want this podcast to be? I am a museum junkie,

Heather Newman:  I am too so that's why I asked you. Cause I, yeah, go ahead. Give us something.

Adam Smith:  The first day at museum school, I distinctly remember this, that, that the professor said, when you go to museum school, you never really enjoy your visit in a museum again because every museum you visit you will go into analytical mode. And you, you will stop, you know, you analyze it professionally and by and large that's true. I visit a lot of museums and a lot of galleries and a lot of experiences and a lot of the time you're analyzing it. You know, , as a professional thing. However, every now and again I think my professor was wrong because every now and again I go somewhere and it's like, wow, that is awesome. That inspires me, you know, that is, um, that's just what a great, what a great time I just had. So, just in the last, in the last 12 months or so, I'll tell you one, I think the number one for me in the last twelve months was I got to the, um, the Ghibli Museum in Tokyo. Um, so for your listeners that are not familiar that the Studio Ghibli is, I don't know, it's kind of like Disney of Japan. Um, they, they create, you know, these wonderful anime films, um, over the last generation and about 10 years ago, they, they created a museum in a public park just outside of Tokyo. And it is definitely, you know, if you think about what Disney did, they create Disneyland and it's like, it is not Disneyland. It is, um, it's this really special place that if you've ever watched any of the Ghibli films, there's like this atmosphere, there's a depth about them that is almost, you know, you can't put your finger on it, but you know, it's there, and that feeling runs through the museum.

Adam Smith:  And so in terms of a place that was just utterly unique in the way it's laid out, the way it approaches its subject, the way it makes you feel something through architecture, light, sound, atmosphere, you know, that, that I'll never forget the time that I spent there. Another one I went to recently was a place called Meow Wolf in Santa Fe, New Mexico. Um, that was really interesting. It's, I mean, they have hit the Jackpot. Actually, talking about George RR Martin, He lives in Santa Fe and was a big part of getting Meow Wolf started. He purchased the building. It was an old bowling alley that this sort of crazy interactive, immersive, art experience. Um, it's so hard to describe, but if you just, if any of you listeners are interested, Google Meow Wolf, uh, Meow like a cat, and Wolf like an animal one.

Adam Smith:  And it's, um, one of the inspirational things about that for me relative to Comic-Con museum was we've been conceptualizing the Comic-Con museum not just as a daytime museum, which most museums are, a place you can go and visit and do cool things during the day. But relatively early in our thought process about Comic-Con museum, we, we, we, we started to think that it was a really interesting opportunity to have a nighttime museum so you don't close. There are things you can do at night that you can't do during the day and there are audience you can reach that you can't reach during the day. And, um, when I went to Meow Wolf they have totally nailed that, that, that, that this whole nighttime museum concept. For me to be able to walk in this place and, and, and see it for real, you know, what we've been imagining.

Adam Smith:  It's, that's really, really great. So honestly, Heather I could talk all day about this. There's a few that, I mean just from the last twelve months I thought the Strong Museum of Play in Rochester, New York was fantastic, really, really fantastic. Um, the Corning Museum of Glass in upstate New York, was fantastic. Really enjoyed Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland. There is a lot of parallels between rock and roll and the world of Comic-Con. The way you present that in a museum. I love National World War Two Museum in New Orleans. I think that's one of the greatest museums that's been developed in the last decade. Um, I could go on.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, yeah, no, totally. I know. I, I was at the EMP and went to see the Pearl Jam exhibit there and you know, and sometimes when you step into a museum and because I lived in Seattle and was going to college during that time, so I was in the middle of when grunge happened and that particular one just kind of knocked me, not because I just, I love Pearl Jam, but also because it was like that was the, the, you know, the sign, like that's the sign, the Rock Candy Center. The, you know, off ramp and stepping into that sometimes. You're just like, wow!

Adam Smith:  What you're talking about is, relates to the word nostalgia. And I, I think that nostalgia is one of the most powerful forces or the most powerful emotions that human beings have. And this is something I've studied and thought about a lot and is very pertinent to what you just said and Comic-Con museum, things like that. You know, the origin of the word nostalgia, um, it, it was, it was originally a disease. You could die, you could die of nostalgia. But like the last American citizen that had nostalgia listed as his cause of death was a, uh, an American soldier in World War One. Died of home sickness that, you know? Of yearning for his home. And, um, so it's a powerful thing. And I think the, what you just described about Pearl Jam, it was a cool exhibit for you, you know, because of that connection that it made to you and your personal story and your personal journey through life.

Adam Smith:  And I think that is so pertinent to the Comic-Con museum because everyone that walks through the door, their interaction with the content in the museum is related to what they like, what they have done, you know? So even now we've got people now that are becoming nostalgic about Harry Potter, you know? Sure, there are people nostalgic about Star Wars and about, um, you know, about Star Trek or whatever. People almost date themselves by where their nostalgic hits. In some ways the opportunity for me and the team working on  Comic-Con museum is to sort of grasp that and you know, give everyone, um, that personal nostalgia, and the shared nostalgia. But the challenge we've got is, um, there's so much variety, you know, and we've got 68,000 square feet, but I could happily take 10 times that. part of our answer to that is making the space extremely flexible. Um, so a lot of rotating exhibit space so that, um, we can, you know, we can go through different subjects and, you know, touch the maximum number of people.

Heather Newman:  Sure. Yeah, no, that makes sense. Yeah, no, I, I, I hadn't thought about it in that way. The word nostalgia in that, I mean, that absolutely makes sense. It's kind of like sense memory, right? You know, like you smell something, you hear something, you read something, you know, and it takes you back to a moment, you know, and has you experience it again? And that's, yeah, that's, that's super cool. Hey, I was wondering, um, I can't remember if we talked about this, but as far as the museum goes, are there plans to, um, hold events, like, so could people have an event in the Comic-Con museum coming up too, is that part of the whole thing as well?

Adam Smith:  Absolutely. Um, well for starters, we've already been made aware that there are a couple, um, are holding their wedding day when the museum opens so they can get married in Comic-Con Museum. Um, I'm not actually joking. So yeah, I think any, you know, any great museum, and we're really thinking hard about this as we're in a design phase right now with architects and thinking about food and drink service, not just as a museum cafe, but how do we, how do we cater for that. For the banquet wedding or whatever. Um, so, so, so actually I think maybe the difference with Comic-Con museum is that we are imagining it as almost like a community center. You know, we have that nighttime, we, we've, we've got, um, a couple of book clubs that are operating out of the museum right now.

Adam Smith:  You know, they meet every month. Just a great social experience. I think that's a little microcosm as you know, we imagine there's going to be people doing gaming, you know, people making costumes, people, you know, using the museum and the rooms inside it as a, um, as, as, as a place where events small and large. We'll Have small film festivals, we'll have small fan conventions, we'll have panels. You know, there will be a lot of things. What I, what I haven't got exactly right now is, you know, um, all of the building mapped out so that I could show someone and they could make a reservation. we won't be there for another 14, 15 months. We'll get there eventually.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. No, that's exciting. Yeah. So many museums have that great, you know, have, have either, you know, plans for event space and have so many, you know, so much programming and stuff. And I think, but you can, what is it? I think in the, is it the Rakes museum in the Netherlands, you can, you know, have a dinner, uh, next to the Night watch, you know, Rembrandt's big painting. Like I love that kind of stuff. Right. And you can have a meal that just like the meal in some of the movies and stuff or the different paintings and everything. That's so cool. So also, so you still, obviously you still have room, there's, um, people can be a charter member, right? And sign up for that as well to be a charter member of the museum. Yeah?

Adam Smith:  Oh yes. Any great museum usually has a membership program. Um, um, and we wanted to bring that to life as soon as possible because Comic-Con as an organization, you know, is of the fans for the fans. And we wanted to, um, we were, we really wanted to, to find a mechanism that fans could feel involved and feel a part of it from day one. So at Comic-Con last year we launched a charter membership program. Uh, we just, I think we just hit 12,000 charter members of a museum that doesn't exist yet, which is really awesome, you know. Um, and it's, it, it, it's a way, I feel like we're building this, this army of people that are, that are sort of massing in support of the Comic-Con Museum. And that definitely helps us in terms of fundraising, you know, from larger donors and foundations and things like that that when they can see this ground swell of people, um, coming is fantastic.

Adam Smith:  So, um, yeah, it, we want to make it affordable. So even for $10 we will consider you a charter member someone, this name will be immortalized as someone that, that, uh, you know, helped to create the museum, um, and the levels go up through for $50, then essentially what you're doing is pre purchasing a free year of admission for the first year of the Comic-Con Museum. so, um, and at $100 you get a t-shirt and some other goodies. And, uh, I joined myself at the $1,200 level cause I felt I have to buy the most expensive one. As it gets more expensive you get less but you feel like you're contributing more.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. No, I mean I think, you know, there's some, uh, I love that you've created so many ways to contribute and I remember that from last year and you know, I, I called it the EMP, it's now called the Mo-Pop cause they changed the name, but I was a charter member of the EMP when it started. And you know, you feel, you feel that connection and you feel that, you know, yeah. You know, you helped this thing become what it is. And you know, I have memberships too. Like, I spent a lot of time in New York, so like I'm a member of MoMA even though I don't live there, you know? And so I think that's really cool too, that this is, you know, Comic-Con obviously is a global experience and the Comic-Con Museum will be that as well. Right. So, you know, being able to contribute to something even from afar that you love.

Heather Newman:  I think I love it that you put that together. It's super cool. So thank you for doing that. Yay. That's exciting. Um, you know, I want to, um, I want to ask you one more, one more, couple of a couple more questions, but, um, so like, you know, with, uh, if you have advice for other people who are looking to, you know, who are, um, museum collectors like yourself, if you will. Um, you know, like you, you obviously went to St Andrew's and is, are there, you know, places and ways other people can get involved in sort of being a part of, you know, taking care of museums, curating museums and all of that, Other advice that you have for those coming up who might be hearing this and going, I want to do that too. I want to do what he did. That kind of thing.

Adam Smith:  Yeah, it's, um, it is, it is quite a competitive career. You know, there are, there are certain, there are certain, you know, if you want to be a famous comic book artist, you know there's a lot of people want to do that. And um, I'm not saying that, um, working in museums is quite, quite as important as that, but it, you know, that it, it is the kind of job that a lot of people feel attracted to. So, um, if you're halfhearted about it, then might not be for you because you, you are definitely going to be, um, sort of competing with people that are all in, if that makes sense. Um, but if it's something that you really feel drawn to do as obviously I did, um, then you know, they're there, there are different ways in, um, that probably the two easiest to describe, you know, you can do what I did, which is to do a do a degree in museum studies or, or a Grad, you know, so, um, postgraduate course, or, um, anyone can get involved by volunteering at a local museum.

Adam Smith:  Um, and you know, Keegan Chertwind who I work with, you know, he's, he's going to have a really successful career in museums because he's a really talented guy and he found his way in. He didn't do that university so you don't have to, um, you know that there, there are a lot of museums just would love, you know, some help, um, from a, from a talented person if they're able to get it.

Heather Newman:  Sure. Yeah. So, and sort of last question, um, you talked a little bit about the Game On experience and, um, I like to talk about and ask folks their spark or a moment and, and I think definitely that was one for you. Is there another person or place or thing or something, you know, you talked a little bit about your history, but was there another something that you, that happened to you or an experience where you were like, yes, you know, and that propelled you forward, that really sticks out in your mind that you would share with everybody?

Adam Smith:  Um, I, I think I got really lucky with my second job in the sense that I found myself aged 24 running really big airplane museum in Scotland. Um, and it was one of the national museums, but it was all a little bit sort of, it was a satellite museum of a huge organization with 3000 employees or something like that. And you know, it, it was, um, and I was, I was running the satellite and I had a lot of freedom to take this museum where I felt it needed to go and we had a tremendous amount of success. Um, the number of visitors to that museum in the five years I was there, went up five times. Uh, um, so there were lots of different times on that journey where I was just, you know, had that kind of wow moment.

Adam Smith:  But the one that stands out for me is we decided to do an air show and, and um, you know, as a, as a way of drawing attendance to the museum. And um, in America you have like the Thunderbirds and the Blue Angels are your kind of big jet display teams. Well, for any British person it's the Red Arrows all the way. And the day that Red Arrows said they were going to come and fly at my air show, it was like that I will never forget that because I was that, you know, eight-year-old boy looking up into the sky and being just awed by these things. And so there, there are definitely things on, on the journey like that stand out at you.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, of course. That's awesome. And I, you know, I have one more question. So do you find, do you feel, I mean I just feel like museums, you know, if sometimes people about different art forms and you're like, you know, you'll get the critic or somebody that's like, oh, theater, live theater is dead and Dah Dah, Dah Dah, you know, or you know, museums. I feel like museums are just still so valid and, and people are going still in record numbers. Do you feel that and do you see that as well? I just, I feel like it's such like people are like, I love this. Maybe it goes back to the nostalgia thing, but I don’t know, what do you feel about this sort of the whole, I guess the industry of Museums, I guess?

Adam Smith:  Oh yeah. I mean, what do I feel about in the industry? It is, it is a strange industry. You know, there are more museums in America than McDonald's and Starbucks put together. There's a lot near there. And, um, I will say this, 90% of them at least are operating in some mode of business failure, you know. Museums are terrible economic models and, you know, one of the, one of the responsibilities I feel so deeply about the Comic-Con museum is to make sure that we're in the 10% that are sustainable from an economic point of view. Are museums here to stay? Of course, they are, um, there is, um, you know, for the human race, the things that museums preserved, I think only get cooler the older they get.

Adam Smith:  So, the, I, I don't think that any virtual reality display or internet or whatever can replace the experience of standing with your own eyes to look at an amazing artifact, whether it's arts or, you know, the, the Rosetta Stone or whatever it is. And so I think there is, there's an essential experience related to museums that will, um, you know, not go away. I think museums are in a state of change and flux though right now. There's definitely like a new generation of museum coming through that is um, heavily influenced by that word I just used the experience. like Meow Wolf that I was talking about in Santa Fe is a great example of that's a new generation of museum that is really caught the wave of what the millennial generation is looking for in a museum. Which is some of the, you know, the things that museums have done in the past, but that sort of idea of really focusing on the experience and giving them something that's memorable and shareable on Instagram or social media or whatever. That kind of thing is definitely influencing how we think about the Comic-Con Museum. We're certainly not going to be a boring museum full of dusty old things.

Heather Newman:  I don't think anything about the way you work in this world is dusty my friend. That's, yeah. That's awesome. So folks can find out and we'll put a bunch of this stuff in the show notes and some of the beautiful places that you mentioned, um, that, uh, folks who are looking to get on. It's a comic Dash Con museum.org and you can go and become a museum insider so you can sign up and get, you know, information that's coming, you know, direct from Adam and the team and you can become a charter member and learn about all the events. And uh, I'm so excited to come down and, and see your handiwork since I got to see sort of, you know, the, the open space, uh, not too long ago. It's so exciting. I'm so excited for you. Is there anything else you'd like to tell our listeners or, and if not, we'll get wrapped up here in a minute.

Adam Smith:  Um, there's maybe one feature of the museum that is happening during Comic-Con, we didn't talk about it. I would like to give, they've been really awesome to work with. We're doing a display of the fashion from, from the Her Universe fashion show. So for the past, for the past five or six years, Ashley Eckstein, um, has been creating this, this idea of Geek Couture, you know, that, that, um, we might be able to use pop culture references to have a really awesome runway type show and it's become extremely popular at Comic-Con. And there's is a lot of really talented designers now, you know, uh, uh, creating these awesome gowns every year. So, um, but they've never been displayed. So what we're going to do this year is display, five years of winners from that, uh, you know, from, from the passion show. Um, and, um, I'm really excited about that because I, one thing I learned is that fashion is a really great, um, display topic in a museum. So I think the, the, the gowns will look fantastic.

Heather Newman:  Oh yeah. Completely. Yeah. I, did you see the Frida Kahlo exhibit?

Adam Smith:  No, I didn't.

Heather Newman:  Oh, that was delicious. You couldn't take any pictures. It was like, I was like, Oh God. But that, yeah, that was amazing. And, and I think, you know, like thinking about sort of the, um, the Met Gala and Camp this year and that has become, you know, a much larger event on the world stage as well. Right. So that makes so much sense that, that you would have that, that's so cool. Yeah, you're right. And costumes, do you know, the Prince exhibit right where you get to see different things that Prince wears and all of that. And I mean, I could go on, maybe we'll have a chit chat off the podcast about some of the things we've seen because I can,

Adam Smith:  You just hit one of my heart buttons, by the way, when you talked about a museum where you're not allowed to take pictures. I personally, I think that is one of the most wrongheaded things imagined, you know? In the world we live in, um, I think to be able to share the experience is really, really important. Um, so definitely we're going to allow cameras at the Comic-Con Museum.

Heather Newman:  Cool. Yay. Let's do that. And let's see. I was just looking to see if there was, we looked at everything. Oh, in the Mondo Gallery, 80 years of Batman too. That was one of the other things we didn't cover. Will you talk about that a little bit too?

Adam Smith:  Yeah. Um, Mondo, I think your listeners will know as a, you know, fast growing, pop culture brand out of Austin, Texas that connected with the Alamo Drafthouse Movie Theater. And they, they do these really, well, they do a lot of awesome things, but one of things that they specialize in is sort of screen-printed movie poster kind of things that, that people really love to collect as art prints. And they did for the 80th anniversary of Batman. They did a show for their gallery in Austin, that was screen printed versions of some of the most famous Batman comic covers from, from history and that they very kindly sent that out to San Diego. They've never traveled the show before from their gallery in Austin. So, um, for me that's just a little, again, a foreshadowing of what we want Comic-Con Museum to be, I feel that when you create an exhibit it is a costly thing to do.

Adam Smith:  And if you, you can, you know, send that exhibit to two or three other places, then everyone benefits, you know, you're kind of spreading the cost a little bit. And I think, I think there's going to be a really interesting network that we can pull together. There are some good, um, you know, galleries and museums out there that I think we have some shared interests. So one of the things that I, that I'd like to do is to see exhibits created in San Diego, traveling to other, other parts of the country and even in the world and vice versa. Because I think, um, you know, that I was emailing this week with the Billy Island museum in Columbus, Ohio. And you know, there's no competition between San Diego, California, and Columbus, Ohio for a visitor. It makes total sense for us to collaborate on exhibits, you know?

Heather Newman:  Yeah, absolutely. And some people, you know, like a trip to New York or even San Diego, that's like maybe once a year, maybe even twice a year. Right. So the more we can share with each other, you know, by, you know, trading out, yeah, like building those partnerships. And you're so good at that. I mean that's, that's super exciting. Oh, and one more thing. And then I just, I can't stop talking to you. Um, you, so daily panels, so you're doing panels in the museum theater as well. And I know you haven't announced and revealed the programming yet, but will you talk a little bit about what's up with those as well?

Adam Smith:  Yeah. Um, they're going to be released in a couple of days, um, as part of the normal sort of release of programming information by Comic-Con. And um, we're going to, we've got a 141 seat theater already in the building, so it made sense to try and use it. Um, and I was so happy when the programming staff at Comic-Con that do 800 panels already raised their hand and said, we'd love to help you. And, you know, can we, can we program that space? And I said, you bet. Because they, they're great people. They do a great job and um, what they've done I think is to put together a really nice schedule of, I don't want to say greatest hits it, you know, what they wanted to do was to sort of just repeat some of the programming that takes place down in the convention center, present it to the community of San Diego as you know, here's community programming that gives you an idea of the kind of education and the kind of cool things that go on there in the convention center. And I think, I think we got some great speakers and it's going to be really popular.

Heather Newman:  That's awesome. That's great. And I'll make sure and put the link to the announcement that's got all the details of how to get there and parking. And you know what all the logistics are around that, since it's, you know, it's, it's the Comic-Con Museum, you know, and you don't need a pass to get in, but it's, you know, you're not shuttling people back and forth and all that, that sort of thing. It's um, you know, getting there yourself and going in, but it is free and there's all kinds of great things that are going to happen with the museum, so that's great. Um, are you going to get to, uh, take a breather after, after all the big Hoopla after, uh, the show goes down. You taking any time?

Adam Smith:  I will, I will need one. Um, I'll say this, um, last year was my first Comic-Con as a member of staff and I thought, I got this, you know, I've worked some pretty big air shows in my life. I used to work as part of the world's largest air show. You know, it's sort of like the Comic-Con of aviation in Oshkosh, Wisconsin. I thought, I got this, you know, I'll, I'll need like one day off to recover and then I'll be back at work. Well, I was dead for a week. I'm not joking. I said to my mother, I did not leave my apartment for five days cause I just needed, Comic-Con is so intense, you know, so, um, I'm, I'm stealing myself. I plan to do nothing except, you know, play video games and, and get caught up on all of the amazing television that I'm currently missing.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, completely. Well, a more of a staycation then if you will. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I'll say it was so nice after Comic-Con last year cause it was my first time moderating a panel and, uh, ending Comic-Con with you, you know, to, to celebrate was so fun. So thank you for that again, that was really special. So I really, really enjoyed that, um, doing that with you. So, well here's to, um, another amazing Comic-Con, but also, uh, an amazing pop up and, uh, preview Beta test, all of that, of the new Comic-Con Museum coming to us in 2021. I really appreciate your time and I love talking to you. So thank you for being on the show today. Truly.

Adam Smith:  Thank you Heather. It's been my pleasure.

Heather Newman:  Absolutely. Folks. Well, we will have all the notes for lovely Adam, um, about the Comic-Con Museum and all the things going on there and all the great things that he told us about to go check out museums to see and all of that and how to follow him and the museum in the show notes. And so that has been another Mavens Do It Better podcast. And you can find us on all the usual places on iTunes, on Stitcher, on Spotify, on Google play, and on our website. So here is to another beautiful day on this big blue spinning sphere. Thanks a lot everyone.