Introduction
Welcome to the Mavens Do It Better podcast. And now your host, Heather Newman.
Heather Newman
Hello everyone. Here we are again for another Mavens Do It Better podcast, where we interview extraordinary experts who bring a light to our world. And we definitely have a wonderful person on today who I've known for a while and we've been trying to get scheduled for a bit, so Chevonna Gaylor, Hello! How are you?
Chevonna Gaylor
Hi! So happy to be here and I'm so glad we're finally able to make this happen.
Heather Newman
I know.
Chevonna Gaylor
Yes, yes, yes.
Heather Newman
Absolutely. Me as well. So, where are you coming to us today from?
Chevonna Gaylor
Today I am in my office. I call myself "not your average therapist," and therapy is my gift. So, my office is my happy place. This is where the magic happens.
Heather Newman
I'm in my typical HQ right now in Marina Del Rey, California. You're California as well.
Chevonna Gaylor
Yes. Southern California as well. Yes. In near Temecula area, so about an hour east of LA and about an hour north of San Diego.
Heather Newman
Yeah that's right. Temecula is kind of wine country as well, too right?
Chevonna Gaylor
Yes, Temecula wine country. I'm not in Temecula, but most people don't know where Canyon Lake is, so I say Temecula because I'm about 10-15 minutes away from Temecula, just so that they have an idea of where.
Heather Newman
Right right. Gotcha. So Gosh, we met through a mutual - a few mutual friends actually, with Eleuthera Lish, of course, wonderful Eleuthera, who you do a lot of work with actually, yeah?
Chevonna Gaylor
Yes, yes, my work with Eleuthera. She is the executive director of Soteria, which provides safe spaces and intervention, early intervention, and prevention for sexual assault and just creates safety in nontraditional settings. So, she is the executive director of that, and I am the clinical director. So, we've collaborated on some amazing projects, like offering safe spaces at Coachella and Stagecoach. And we recently did a research project, kind of working with those this year at Mardi Gras, to look at potentially establishing safe spaces in the future. So just definitely large-scale nontraditional settings of being able to provide that emotional safety.
Heather Newman
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I've been in the background with Soteria. for a while.
Chevonna Gaylor
Yeah, I mean, you know that. Sure. I know, you're very -
Heather Newman
Totally. It's been fun watching what you two are doing, and the rest of the team as well. So, I've always been like, Ooh, it's great to see how things kind of keep evolving. Because Mardi Gras, gosh, right in the middle of sort of the beginnings of our pandemic that we're in the middle of - I bet that was interesting on like a gazillion levels. Having been there for that.
Chevonna Gaylor
It was fascinating. Especially because it definitely, personally impacted us. Yeah. So Eleuthera and I stayed together in the hotel there. And she had just come from Seattle. So, we stayed together for about three or four days. I was not very familiar with the pandemic and what was going on. So, we were all over the place. We were in so many - we worked with fire department, we worked with emergency responders, we went to the sober tanks, we were in the middle, we worked with Red Cross. So, we were definitely behind the scenes with the FBI and really kind of collaborating in safety settings and not fully aware of the dynamics. And then when we went back Eleuthera was ill. And so, what we found was that she said, she called me, and it was almost humorous. They asked her, so have you been in close contact with anyone else? Because you may have contracted it before you even went to New Orleans. And she said, No, no, just my husband. And then she thought about and she said, Wait, I was in bed with Chevonna. And they were like, wait, what? So, wait, let me explain.
Heather Newman
That's funny. Yeah, I know. I share a bed, hotel rooms with my girlfriends, people I work with all the time. And you know what I mean? You don't even think about it. You're like, yeah, of course, we're saving money. And that's what we do.
Chevonna Gaylor
It just sounded like a weird thing to say. I was in bed with Chevonna and then, so maybe - (laughing)
Heather Newman
Yeah, yeah, no, I went to a fairly large gathering that first weekend in March in Joshua Tree for a friend's birthday, and yeah, it was interesting. You know, I don't think any of us, for sure had it, and I don't know how many people got tested to see if they had it or not. But people flew in from all over, and it was one of those before we all kind of knew what was happening, you know? And now we're in not so good times around all of that.
Chevonna Gaylor
Yeah. What I've been what I've been thinking about and I was kind of a quote that I've been that's just been on my spirit lately is that um, I just typed it out yesterday, because it just was it was kind of it was running through my head and I was like, I have to get this out. The world is rocking. The world is rocking, and there's no way for us to not be swayed.
Heather Newman
Yeah.
Chevonna Gaylor
Because the entire world is rocking. If we're alive in this time, we're going to be swayed. But it's important that we have to be actually intentional about making sure that we don't fall.
Heather Newman
Yeah, Right. Yeah. I like that. I mean, sometimes you got to get steady with some friends and some family.
Chevonna Gaylor
Yes, yes. Hold on to some somebody or something else that can be your rock to kind of hold you up because yeah,
Heather Newman
Absolutely. Yeah. I like that metaphor a lot, because it is, it's wiggly. I mean, the world is always moving and stuff, but right now it's so - I don't know. I'm sure you're probably talking about that kind of stuff in what you do with your therapy and everything too. I mean, this is a time there's noise and trauma and. Are you super busy right now? I would assume so.
Chevonna Gaylor
Extraordinarily. So, my practice is fuller than it's ever been. But additionally, two nights a week I work out of a hospital emergency room as a psychiatric liaison. And so, if someone were to come into the emergency room for a medical issue, obviously. But what they find in assessing them is that their medical issue has any kind of emotional or psychiatric foundation, then what the psychiatric liaison does is goes in and assesses what's going to be the appropriate kind of discharge or disposition plan. So, we do a thorough psychiatric evaluation, and then we collaborate with the doctors, the nurses, the entire team to figure out okay, so now once they're medically clear what should happen? And so, there's been a significant increase in suicide attempts over this time, because of the fact that people are struggling, they're struggling, they don't have their standard coping skills, their coping mechanisms. A lot of job loss, relationship loss, that isolation has meant increased drug and alcohol use. All of that has kind of played into a lot of people that I'm seeing.
Heather Newman
Yeah, that makes sense. I want to I want to circle back. Where are you from originally?
Chevonna Gaylor
LA! I'm an LA girl. Absolutely.
Heather Newman
Okay, okay, maybe I did know that. But okay. Have you been other places for school or anything like that?
Chevonna Gaylor
I did. I was born and raised in Los Angeles. Undergrad, I went to UCLA and then for grad school, my husband and I had the opportunity to go to Illinois. And so, we took the kids there. He worked for Trader Joe's and he was promoting with Trader Joe's because they were expanding to the Midwest and East Coast. So he helped kind of start that expansion in the Midwest, and we moved there and I got my master's there, and he moved up in the ranks and became a manager at the Trader Joe's in the Midwest, and we raised our kids there for about six and a half, seven years.
Heather Newman
Okay, cool. Yeah. Where were you in Illinois?
Chevonna Gaylor
The Northwest suburbs of Chicago. So, a little town called Arlington Heights.
Heather Newman
No way. I went to high school Wheaton.
Chevonna Gaylor
No way! No way. I went to grad school in Schaumburg.
Heather Newman
Oh, get out of town. My dad used to run the Schomburg JC Penney. He was the manager of the JC Penney in Schaumburg.
Chevonna Gaylor
Yes! Look at that. I love the Midwest. I feel like the people I met there were so much more authentic. Like, what we realize is it was family. When you meet people in Los Angeles, it's very surface. I find.
Heather Newman
Yeah.
Chevonna Gaylor
It's very surface. But the people we met in Illinois, they're family and we still have relationships. It was beautiful. It was a beautiful experience.
Heather Newman
That's so funny. Yeah, I was like where? I was like, I am divorced, but I my extended family from my divorce, but they live in Arlington Heights, funnily enough. I've been to Arlington Heights many times. My dad worked at JC Penney's, and was a manager. And so, every time he got promoted, we got moved. And so, we were in Michigan, Indiana, and then Illinois, and I got to go to high school all four years in Wheaton. So that was a big deal. Then I went to a year of Illinois State University and then popped out west to Seattle to finish up at U dub.
Chevonna Gaylor
Wow, so Seattle? Is that where you met Eleuthera?
Heather Newman
Yes and no. We met later. We have a mutual friend Julia Francis, actually. And that's kind of how we met but funnily enough Eleuthera lived in Sebastopol. I've lived in Sebastopol. Like there were just all these weird funny like I did theater in Seattle. She went to Cornish like, yeah. So, it was one of those destiny like at some point, we're going to intersect, and we finally did. And then working on Into Action and We Rise with everybody, you know, getting to know the whole crew down here too was super cool.
Chevonna Gaylor
Are you in? You're in LA. You said you're in like the LA area right now, right?
Heather Newman
Yeah, I live in Marina Del Rey. So over here on the Westside. I love it down here. I lived in Seattle for 10 years and then Sebastopol up in North Bay. So yeah, I really like LA, but I got a lot of family and friends up in Seattle too. So yeah, that's cool. So, you got so got your MBA and you're raising kids. And then what brought you back to California?
Chevonna Gaylor
Well, I got my master's in Illinois. I started practicing there and raising kids. Right as I was getting ready to graduate - because we had three children. And so right as I was getting ready to graduate, I unexpectedly expected our fourth blessing, okay. Yeah, right before grad school, right before the into grad school. So, we were like, Okay. All right. So, I graduated, and I started my career, and of course he's, you know, opening stores in Lake Zurich and Palatine, and just opening all these stores in Chicago area. And it came down to us needing to be parents and build a career at the same time. So, if someone wasn't feeling well, and I'm like, Well, I'm building a career and he's like, well, I'm the breadwinner. So, we're like, who takes off? We didn't have any family. We had some friends, but how much can you impose on those friends that feel like family before they become estranged associates?
Heather Newman
Like No and NO.
Chevonna Gaylor
So, we're like, I think we need some family. With four kids and two very ambitious parents, I think we need family support. And made us decided to come back. And then it's interesting because we didn't come back to Los Angeles because we were thinking - you've been in Arlington Heights. Our little suburbanites would have had complete shock. So, we came back to another small town - Canyon Lake. Our parents had some retirement property there. And we just came back to their house in Canyon Lake and we've been there.
Heather Newman
That's awesome. Yeah, yeah, definitely. That's Arlington Heights to sort of like LA would definitely be a bit of a jolt.
Chevonna Gaylor
Be traumatic. Yes, traumatic.
Heather Newman
Yes. Oh, my goodness. And with your practice, will you tell our listeners a little bit about your practice and what you do as well?
Chevonna Gaylor
Sure, well, I'm a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. And as I said, therapy is my gift. Really, I feel like it's my calling and so it's my honor to serve others. And in that honor, I kind of had to find my niche or it found me because people with the most hurt were led to me. For whatever reason I've been able to hold space with them and partner with them towards their healing. So, I work with individuals. It could be a four-year-old who needs play therapy due to grief or an adult who's just trying to find their way in life, or a young adult or male relationships, communication, self-esteem. But I even work with like severe trauma. I partner with some organizations that support human trafficking eradication. So, I treat the human trafficking survivors as well as working with the staff on how to deal with that vicarious trauma of working with the survivors as well.
Heather Newman
Yeah, great. Yeah, I think some people don't always realize that as a first line worker, I don't even know what you want to call it, maybe a better word than I do. But just when you're of service,
Chevonna Gaylor
Yes, when you're directly in the thick of it,
Heather Newman
In the mix, right? As a therapist or a doctor or nurse or whatever, it's not just like I go do my job and I'm not affected by it, right? So, self-care, I think, too, and how do you deal with that and let go of that kind of stuff. So that's the kind of thing you're doing with people like that, right?
Chevonna Gaylor
Yes, absolutely. Because you have to have a process to release it. Because if we're not, if you don't take that time to nurture your own soul and you're not whole, then you're going to try to support someone else while you're fully wounded. And it's not as effective. It's not as effective because you're seeing through the lens of your wound. You're seeing through the lens of your own pain instead of being able to fully connect with that person.
Heather Newman
Yeah, it's almost like in relationships where I like the 20 minute to half hour transition between work and not work, you know?
Chevonna Gaylor
Yeah. Yes. And I like that you said that because I even do that in therapy. I might dig into something heavy and then we jump out and maybe have humor. And then we dig in deep and then we jump out. But I think having that heaviness is just too much for any human being to just stay. One of the women that I work with that has some significant trauma, she calls it leaning in. She'll say, you know what, sometimes I'll lean a little bit into my grief. But then I sometimes I can't lean in. So, I'll say, I'll tell her Hey, we’re gonna lean in a little bit, and then I promise we'll lean out. So, we have to be able to lean out.
Heather Newman
Yeah, for sure. And I think right now, to me life is a big roller coaster in a puzzle anyway. Sometimes you're WHAAA! And sometimes you're like, Oh my gosh, hanging on with one hand, and other times Both hands on. I just feel like people right now in general are just tired, and also just too much I don't know what to do, I don't know where to focus. Between COVID and George Floyd and everything that's been, all this stuff, and I'm like, What? Like, one thing maybe? One thing hope? I don't know.
Chevonna Gaylor
It is heavy. Like I said, the world is rocking, and trying to figure out - really the goal is to try to find what we do with that emotion.
Heather Newman
Yeah.
Chevonna Gaylor
Once we feel it, Okay, so I need some purpose. I can't just sit and stew in it. I've been doing a lot of training on the impact of the global health pandemic as well as what I call this global awakening, of this justice awakening. It's heavy, but it's also a huge opportunity. And so, but what we are finding is that anxiety, depression, and PTSD. People who already struggle with those things. So, anxiety they already have. Their baseline is worrisome thoughts, right? Depression baseline is sad thoughts, PTSD, of course, there's been some kind of trauma. So, people who are already in those categories or struggle with that, it's getting by being inundated with everything that's going on in the world, those can be worse. Those symptoms can be worse. But the thing that's powerful now is people who never struggled with anxiety, depression, or even like, trauma triggers are now experiencing it for the first time and they're like, Whoa, what is this? I've never had heart palpitations. I've never had a panic attack. I've never - What is this? This is a new. And so, it's unfamiliar. And giving yourself permission to know that if the world has changed around you it's going to eventually change you. So just like we said, the world is rocking. We're gonna sway. Don't let yourself fall. Realize it's okay to rock. Don't be mad at yourself for swaying like what's wrong with me? Why am I rocking back and forth? The world is rocking. You're on the earth. It's gonna be gonna affect you. It's okay.
Heather Newman
Yeah, yeah, I know. Everybody not takes it down a notch, but just give yourself a break maybe, you know. A little bit. I'm seeing a lot with a lot of friends and people that are just like, Whoa, you know? So, you probably do a lot of that for yourself, right? Sort of that, I need to like, so I can have my family and my husband and all of those things. You know, do that separation for yourself.
Chevonna Gaylor
I have to. I have to. A couple weeks ago. I think it was just two weeks ago, I was feeling - I've been working 70 to 80 hours a week. Between my practice being completely full, the hospital job, training contracts and contracts with other I have about three or four other contracts with other organizations. Just I was feeling heavy. So, I just was like what do I need? I had to assess myself: Chevonna, what do you need? I needed the ocean and I needed my family. So, I contacted - now my children are adults. I only have one that's not an adult. But I've texted everybody in the family and said Weekend beach house vacation - we're going. And I just found an Airbnb on the beach. I booked it for two days, well three days and two nights, and I reserved it and said I'll be there. I hope you guys all can come on out. I need ocean, I need air, and I need you. And so, we had, it was just an impromptu family getaway and it was so good for my soul. I don't know I assume it was good for their souls too, but I'm being selfish here. I needed that.
Heather Newman
Yeah, yeah. I read you know, I read, and does it relate to the blog post you wrote about the cups?
Chevonna Gaylor
Oh yes.
Heather Newman
I read that I thought that was cool. Will you tell everybody about that, and we'll make sure to put that in the show notes as well.
Chevonna Gaylor
Oh, about the cups - my three cups. Oh, my goodness.
Heather Newman
And the languages. I love the love languages.
Chevonna Gaylor
Yes, my love - One of the most powerful things that I did learn about is love languages, and I didn't learn that until well into my marriage. Well into my marriage. And so, for those who are not familiar with the concept of love languages, the belief is that there are five primary love languages that we speak. And that when we speak that language is the way we not only give, we receive and give love. So, for example, the five proposed love languages are words of affirmation, which is just telling someone you care about them. Acts of service is doing something for someone. Gifts, it can be as small as a small treat or as big as a diamond ring. Quality time and physical touch. And physical touch is not necessarily it can be non-sexual touch - hugs cuddles, just physical touch. So, my love language, what I learned after about seven years of marriage when I discovered this theory, is that my love language is words of affirmation. I score very high on words of affirmation and physical touch, I'm cuddly. Now my husband, he scored lowest on words of affirmation. And so, what he realizes that he loves to show his love. And so, what I realized is a lot of times that maybe he'd be wanting to show it - and gifts. So, he'd be wanting to show me his love through gifts or through doing stuff for me and I'd be looking for that compliment. Like, tell me I'm pretty or that the dress looks good or my button looks good under those jeans. You know, and he's like, But I watched your car and I brought you coffee. So, we learned that and I, for the life of me, I never knew that gifts matter to him. We have been together. We had kids; we have been together all these years. And when I saw that I said, I think this must be wrong. He said no, when you and the kids are gone all day, and maybe I was at work all day and you come home and say, Hey, I know you really like these potato chips and I bought you these chips while we were at the store because I thought about you. He's like, that really matters to me. I'm like chips?? Or he's like - All the things I do for you and you care about a Snickers? He's like That matters to me. That was groundbreaking. That was great for our relationship.
Heather Newman
Yeah, I think I discovered it too. Not so long ago. And it's for husbands and wives and partners or whatever. But I think having your mom do it is super interesting too. Like, everybody in your family because it applies. And if you can figure that, I've heard of families doing those things, and they're all like, I had no idea that you were like, but it makes sense. Don't you think that people do, like you were saying, they do what they want? Like they do to others what they want done to them. I guess as far as -
Chevonna Gaylor
The example is for my daughter She is not emotionally expressive at all, and when I actually discovered that they had it for adolescents was around the time (she's now 25) but it was around the time she was a middle schooler and Ooh, I was like, either she hates me or...? It was really a tough time in our relationship. I was grasping for straws. Please Lord, I need something. Show me what to do. And so, I had her take it, and because I would always text her these long flowy messages. Like that was when cell phones were new, and she had a razor. She had a pink flip phone razor. She was in middle school. Yes! And she was IT. And I will text her these messages about how I love her and she's my angel but she's my only girl and I just believe in her and how like she's beautiful and all this stuff and I get back KAY.
Heather Newman
What? Kay.
Chevonna Gaylor
Oh yeah. So, I'm like All right. But when she took the survey, like almost 90% was acts of service. And I realized that almost every morning my daughter - because everybody knows that I start my day with a cup of coffee. Almost every morning she would make me like a slice of toast and a cup of coffee. And she wouldn't make a big deal out of it - she'd say Mom I made your coffee, or Mom I got your stuff out of the car for you because I know you're tired. She just would always do-little considerate things for me. And I thought that she didn't care about me because she wasn't sending me back flowy lovey emotional mushy texts. But she had been she Showing me her love for me, and that was so powerful. It really brought tears to my eyes and I'm like she's been telling me she loved me all this time. And then I realized, okay, I haven't been telling her I love her in the way she would receive it. Because she may have been thinking like, dang, she never does anything nice or considerate for me. She's just always telling me how pretty I am. Or how smart and powerful I am. And she's like, I don't care about that, right?
Heather Newman
That's so funny. Yeah, I loved your article about that because I definitely relate to that. And the cups too. Wil you talk about the cups part?
Chevonna Gaylor
The love cups. Yes. I have to refresh my memory, because I wrote that a long time ago.
Heather Newman
Oh, you did. Okay.
Chevonna Gaylor
Oh yes.
Heather Newman
I think it was the love languages that sort of caught my eye, and then I was like, Ooh I want to read the rest of that?
Chevonna Gaylor
So, I talked about the spiritual cup, the interpersonal cup, and then the personal cup. So, the spiritual cup, I'm going to actually read if you don't mind.
Heather Newman
Please do.
Chevonna Gaylor
Okay, so the spiritual cup is that agape love. So, for me my faith is my primary source of strength. And so, I give out so much of myself that I have to make sure that I'm filling my spiritual cup to stay grounded, to stay effective. To stay effective to be able to give. So, I achieve that through kind of prayer and meditation, scripture, listening to music. And that kind of gets my cup full to be able to give out and to pour out to others. But then there's the interpersonal cup: my love for my family and friends. I have to have that. I have to be connected to those people that I love and whether it's my husband or whether it's my kids, or my girlfriends, my sisterhood, it means the most to me. The saddest thing in the world that I ever heard - one of the saddest things - is when I hear women say, I don't have girlfriends. I don't have that. I don't get along with other women. I'm like, Girl!
Heather Newman
Yeah.
Chevonna Gaylor
You know what you are missing? Something about a sisterhood bond that can feed your soul in a way that no other relationship can.
Heather Newman
Agreed.
Chevonna Gaylor
Man!
Heather Newman
Yeah, and there's a lot of that. There's a lot of that where it's like, I only get along with men or whatever. And it's like, huh?
Chevonna Gaylor
Exactly.
Heather Newman
I think people are missing out for sure if they're not cultivating those relationships. And if we don't, we get to where we're fighting against each other. You know? Like that base, I'm jealous of you. The chemicals in our body that are like, We try to get the best sperm. Ah, you know?
Chevonna Gaylor
Do you have a core sisterhood that you're connected to?
Heather Newman
Yeah, absolutely. I do. Yeah. And that happened I would say for me a little bit later in my life. I always had a core set of friends and also, I don't have children and so I think the other thing for me going through my life was that when people went off and had kids, my ex-husband and I kind of had friends that were either single or it was gay couples or it was like it wasn't the people who went off to have children you know. So that was sort of interesting friend group. That happened for a while, like when we were younger, when everybody was babies and then after college is when for me that really started, that connection of sisterhood, for sure.
Chevonna Gaylor
And what you're mentioning is really powerful. I'm glad you mentioned that with the interpersonal cup because our circles do change. And mind you even though it does make me sad to hear people say, Oh, I don't have girlfriends. It is important to recognize that not everybody's meant to be in every season of your life.
Heather Newman
Yes. Agreed.
Chevonna Gaylor
I heard a quote recently. I did a training with Pepperdine. I co-presented with two other speakers and one of the other speakers said, not everybody is well or healed enough to be in the front seat of your car. And I was like, oh my gosh. And so, it made me think about the fact that it's not that that person is bad, or you wish them ill intent, but some people are not well enough, and I thought about it, okay. There has to be a level of wellness and mutual support and love for them to be in the front seat of your car. And then there are some people who are just in your life. You know, I don't know about you, but I have some family members, they're still in the car. I mean, they're there. They might be in a trunk in the back seat... Or in the Way Back! ... but they're in a car. I haven't decided to kick them out of the vehicle yet. They're in the car. But they're not well enough to be in the front seat and that's okay. I still love them. But there are some people who have just had to get out. It's okay, they just have had to Get out of the vehicle, because my car is going in a certain direction and maybe they didn't want to go that way. They weren't kind of on that path. So, like, hey, let me let you out so you can get to your particular destination. And I love you. Yes, and I didn't even think about the perspective of they have to be well enough to be in the front seat because you will share the load. You will go back and forth. Oh my gosh, look at that. We could write a whole book around that statement. I need to get her name and number. I just need to get her information so I can quote her - make sure I give her the credit, but I have a whole lot that I can write around that not everybody is well or healed enough to be in the front seat of your car.
Heather Newman
Yeah. I think that is an amazing analogy. I've never heard that before. I think that's so cool. Well, and it's also like, you know what? When you're in a car, you want to share the load of the driving and the responsibility and all that stuff. And when somebody is sleeping, or, you know, every other thing that maybe you don't want while you're on your road trip, that's hard too you know. And then people get mad sometimes. They're like, Well, I'm not important to you anymore, and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. And it's not that. It's just that, you know, sometimes it's distance. Sometimes it's you don't live next to each other or whatever. Just things change. Yeah, it is interesting who's in the front seat and who's in the other. I like that a lot. Yeah, or your navigator. You know? So interesting. Yeah. I had someone also say to me, he's actually a tarot card reader. And he said to me, he was like, you know, you're probably in a lot of people's first ring of a phone call if something goes down. You probably are too, you know?
Chevonna Gaylor
Yeah.
Heather Newman
Like clients, family, but also extended because of what do for a living, right? And he said to me, he was like, you know, he was like, maybe you need to give pause and know who your inner ring is for your like immediate responses. Your folks, your honey, or whatever. And then out and maybe you don't necessarily have to be the first person of all of these people, because when they don't get a hold of you, they will they will try number two, number three, number four. And maybe that's ok.
Chevonna Gaylor
Yes, yes, that is really important - being able to consecrate that time. And what helped me to realize that was, what I found was when I would pour out so much to other people, the people who were closest to me who were on the front seat of my car weren't getting the best of me. And I realized I had to save the best for them. I have to say the good stuff for them. They deserve the good stuff. Yes, they deserve the good stuff. Like even something as simple as sometimes the way we would talk to - my pastor said something in a sermon. He was talking about how we will talk to others better than we'll talk to our family. And I was thinking, hmm, if I'm out in public and I need somebody to hand me something or throw something away, I may say, Hey, could you please throw that away from me? But if I'm talking to my kids, it's like, hey, throw this away. And I thought about it like, Oh! Why am I treating other people with more kindness and respect than I treat the people who are closest to me? And that really shifted my energy and it let me realize they deserve my best.
Heather Newman
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I don't know what it was, something I saw, where the moms on the phone. And she's like, (sweet) Hi, Judy. Yes, of course. Of course, I'll bring that pie and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. She hangs up the phone and she's like, (angry/yelling) Like I said, God dammit!
Chevonna Gaylor
That is true. That but that doesn't - mind you, I have failed in that department many times. I specialize in working with adolescents, but ooh, each of my kids during that adolescent phase, I was not the best mom to them. And I tell people all the time, it's so funny when people come in, I say look, especially because I'm in a community that's relatively small. And like Arlington Heights was like point 1% African American and that was me and my kids. (laughing) We were that point 1%. Canyon Lake is similar, right? And so, people know if they come in and do therapy with me, they know that there's some cute little brown faces around they have the last name Gaylor, which is not common, and they may belong to me. It's very likely that they belong to me. And I tell them, do not judge me. Do not judge me by my children. They're amazing. But just because I am a therapist doesn't mean I'm perfect. Doesn't mean I'm a perfect parent, doesn't mean I'm a perfect partner, doesn't mean I'm a perfect person. Don't expect that just because I offer healing to other people and emotional support to other people that I don't have meltdowns myself.
Heather Newman
Yeah. Trying to get it right, right? And whatever right means. Words like normal and right kind of bug me.
Chevonna Gaylor
Exactly!
Heather Newman
You know, just try to be your best, I guess. Do your best.
Chevonna Gaylor
Yes! Trying to be our best. Trying to grow. Trying to be our best. Trying to be the best friend, trying to be the best person. And goes to the third, the personal cup, like that self-love. Because I love travel and adventure. I love being able to read a good book. You know, what fills your personal cup? What do you love to do? Like what makes you just feel your best personally?
Heather Newman
I think travel definitely has been one in my life. I love writing. I love to be honest. To write stories. I love a good book, too. I really love reading and learning. And then I collect art museums. If I would have taken more time in school, I would have done an art minor. Just I love art.
Chevonna Gaylor
Wow, that's awesome.
Heather Newman
Yeah. So those kinds of - and getting outside. For sure.
Chevonna Gaylor
When can you tell? Like when is your radar - When does your alarm go off that lets you know that at least one of these cups is feeling kind of empty? What's your telltale sign or some of your telltale signs?
Heather Newman
I think when I get angry about like, wanting to exercise or something, you know what I mean? Like I know things that are good for me and then I'm like, I don't want to do that. I don't feel like it. And then I'm like, well, if you're acting like that, that's actually what you need to be doing.
Chevonna Gaylor
Oh, that's powerful!
Heather Newman
Yeah, And when I get angry about certain things, I tend to write about them instead of just - make it into a learning moment you know? I've read a lot of books, like going through a divorce and moving to a new city, and I've done a lot of wonderful reading about things that I wish I would have read eons ago. Like there's a Codependence No More, I think is a really great book.
Chevonna Gaylor
Mm Hmm! I recommend it all the time.
Heather Newman
Yeah, that was an enlightening book for me, and I love - I have the journal. There's a daily journal. And I really like that and I kind of use it over and over again. And I write in it sort of overtime and stuff. But that I think, because I think everybody's got a little bit of codependent and a little bit of narcissist in them, depending, and we have that sort of scale, right? And sometimes it flips, depending on who you're with. So that kind of to me was a big breakthrough. And taking care of myself. I'm very high energy and I put myself last and I know that, and I think that's affected my relationships. If you aren't taking care of yourself. It's RuPaul right? If you aren't gonna love yourself, how the hell are you gonna love anybody else?
Chevonna Gaylor
Because you become a martyr and you become resentful.
Heather Newman
Yeah, yeah, and yeah. And other people, I just don't like that either. Take care of yourself, whether it's by working too much or, you know I watch other folks who are dealing with addictions. With not just having an addiction, but it's dealing with somebody that has one, you know? It's a lot. I've seen parents or friends or whatever, that tear their hair out of their head, because they're like, I love this person. I'm trying to help. I don't know what to do, and it's exhausting. So, I think I try to identify the cups and I like talking about things. I'm very, very verbal that way. And also, I try to ask inquisitive questions as like a manager of people. Not just How are you feeling? But like trying to do like a scale of one to five. Like, how are you feeling? And we do it that way. Yeah, that's a good question.
Chevonna Gaylor
I'm sure that insight comes in handy at work, with leading teams for sure. With communication styles and the inside. And all of that is very valuable for leading a team and makes them feel like they can trust you because they feel connected and heard.
Heather Newman
Yeah, I try. I try. I mean, I think you get to a certain age too. I don't know, maybe you find this, I feel like there's like, I dropped in kind of in my 40s, you know? In a different way than I was in my 30s. It was kind of like, It's all about me and all this stuff. And I'm kind of like, Yeah, it's about me, but it's about me raising other people up and bringing people along because I've been helped along the way, and I keep going, Oh my god, am I really 48? When did that happen? You know? And you're the adult in the room.
Chevonna Gaylor
Yeah, 40s was - when I passed that threshold, that was actually exciting for me because I realized that although I had significantly changed, obviously, I was more confident in my 40s than I was in my 20s because I was just comfortable with - I'm more comfortable with who I am. And I just stopped caring as much about other people's opinions. And that was so liberating in my 40s. That was the biggest transition of my 40s.
Heather Newman
Yeah, I agree with that completely. For me, too. Yeah. I mean you still care about some, but I feel like some of that imposter syndrome and some of that other stuff kind of goes away, depending on what you feel is success. For you, for your job, it's about having a good number of clients. You do so many things is what I'm trying to get to that get to. And that feeds you, I would imagine, in different ways.
Chevonna Gaylor
It does. Every role feeds me in different ways. And when I was in undergrad and grad school, I looked at all my textbooks. And every single psychology textbook was based on a theory of an older white male. Every theory, every image. And I said, there's emotional healing that needs to happen for the entire world, but that's not reflected or represented in these books. And I was absolutely determined to change that. And so, by changing that, the way to change that is just to walk in my purpose, and I literally put myself out there in every capacity that I can. If there is a way for me to go and face forward and make a change. I do. And sometimes when I'm tired, and I want to give up, actually the other people who are watching me - I had someone call me about an opportunity, and I was in a car with my youngest, my 15-year-old. And I was just feeling already overwhelmed. That was supposed to be my off day and I was on a business call. And he happened to be in the car on my off day, and I'm taking care of business and the person was telling me, Hey, I've really been talking you up but I think there's some great opportunities that are gonna come down the pipeline for you. I'm really excited to collaborate with you on some projects. And when we hung up, I almost started to tear up and I was like, I don't think I can take on, although that sounds so exciting. And my son was like, what's wrong? I'm like, I don't have space for any more projects. I don't think I have any more to give. And he checked me immediately. He said, Mom, you always say that you want to be the absolute best, that you want to be the greatest and you want to do the most. You think that you can do that by saying you're tired, or that you don't want to, or you don't have more room, or you can't do anymore? He's like, you got to figure out how to make it work. If you want to be the best, then you got to be willing to do the work. (laughing)
Heather Newman
And you're like, Well, I did something right there!
Chevonna Gaylor
All right, but what about you? I'm your mom. He's like, I'm 15! All right! You got to do the work. He starts giving me the speech. Do you think Oprah said she can't take another series on or another part on another project? You think Oprah? I'm like Oprah has a team.
Heather Newman
Love it. Oh, yeah. When people throw our Oprah or Beyonce at you, you're like Okay, they like they have a few people helping them by the way. But that's all right.
Chevonna Gaylor
Exactly. Publicists, team. They're not going home to clean toilets after speaking.
Heather Newman
The point is there though, right?
Chevonna Gaylor
Yeah, I get it. I got it. I felt supported. I felt like it wouldn't be taking from him to walk in that purpose. So, it does heal me, it feeds me. It makes me feel like I'm making an impact. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But it can feel overwhelming. I'm the president of our local chapter of the statewide California marriage and family therapists. We have local chapters and this year I'm serving in the chapter. And being emotionally heavy, being definitely the racial minority, and having to lead a team of other clinicians that sometimes struggle with understanding inequality and inequity and injustice and the impact, especially because of in this area, limited exposure. Yesterday, I was supposed to kind of lead my team and we had to have our board meeting and everything, and I wasn't, I didn't want to. I didn't want to be the leader. I didn't want to be the black leader with the burden of making sure that everybody is aware of the fight of the black people in the world, especially in a clinical setting. I didn't want to. But I realized that this is what I pray for. To be able to have an impact and make a change from a leadership perspective. So how can I make an impact and then not want to do it?
Heather Newman
I think you're allowed to have both feelings.
Chevonna Gaylor
Yes. To have those feelings and still just keep pushing. To be able to feel like I don't want to, but I know I've to and I'm called to. So, let me see what I need to do to fuel myself to do it.
Heather Newman
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for doing it - one. Because it is - in conversations and reading and some of it for me like, and I say it from a place of, you know, I'm sitting in a really nice apartment, I have a great job and all of that, and where I was dropped into the world with the privilege I have, but I also see people and sometimes I'm like, I don't really want to talk to you unless you've like gone to read these three books and watched a couple of movies about this because I can't have this conversation.
Chevonna Gaylor
It's exhausting! It's exhausting, but then the change can't come without it.
Heather Newman
Yeah, without conversation. Without connection, without you know, the change can't come without that. And that sometimes it feels like a heavy, heavy task, I want to say burden, but not necessarily a burden. I remember when we were in Illinois. We were there and in Arlington Heights, and my one of my first jobs was they had an after-school program. And so, before and after school, so I supervised the after-school program and I had all these like little high schoolers that would come and help with the elementary schoolers at the elementary school. They'd do the arts and crafts and I oversee - it was kind of like a Boys and Girls Club type thing, but on the elementary school campus. This cute sweet 18-year-old staff, she said, like, in the middle of the year, she said, you know, you guys are the first black family I've ever met or seen in real life. Well, she's like, ever, I've never ever, ever seen a black family in real life. And I thought, honestly, I thought, first of all, how awesome it is for her to have met us. What a great teaching opportunity. So, it goes along with it. This is heavy, like Dang. So, if we mess up then she's like, Hey, Black families suck. (laughing) I knew just one.... Hope you don't screw up, right? Oh, my goodness. Wow. No pressure!
Chevonna Gaylor
Also, what a great opportunity and how grateful I was for her to feel comfortable enough with me to disclose that. And it was just such a great relationship and such a great connection. So, through the exposure we make the change, the conversations, right?
Heather Newman
Absolutely. Yeah. We must, we have to, and it's one of the things you know? I wanted to ask you about - I’m excited to, I haven't read it yet, but I want to read your book. I was looking at The Emerging Healer, adding insight and impact to your mental health work. And it struck me I was like, I think everybody should probably read that, especially if you're in a position of management or whenever you're dealing with people, right? I mean, that's a layer.
Chevonna Gaylor
Yes! It's the book, also I thought about changing the title, the subtitle at least, because it gives the impression that it is just for mental health workers. But there's a level - what it is it's for people who have insight or who are seeking insight to go a little deeper, right? Because what I do is, I teach people - I'm very transparent about my story. So, I use a narrative approach. So, I transparently share my story, interwoven with clinical insight, interwoven with kind of tools that people can use to get better connected to other people. So, each chapter has a blend of my personal story, how my personal story impacted me professionally, and then here are some tips and tools that you can use to apply in everyday life.
Heather Newman
Love it.
Chevonna Gaylor
And then it ends with questions. So, like there are bullet points that are for like, if you are a therapist, do this. Because so many therapists would say, I went to school, and I got out of school, and then I sat with a person who came to me for their support and their healing and I had no idea what to do. Because all that theory and textbook and reading doesn't prepare you for someone who comes to you with heavy pain and is like, Oh. So, I give really concrete tools. And then there's also a processing question for anyone. Like, for example, one of the chapters is called What's in a name? So, I talk about where my name came from, and just kind of tell the story about my name, and my feelings about my name coming up, right? And so, I talk about the fact that I really didn't like the name. I thought it was something - it was so different - and I thought it was, I don't know, stereotypical. And then it was spelled all different and I always had to explain how it was spelled, and it was just frustrating. And then I include an article by Ayesha Curry, where she was talking about her name as well and how her parents, her father, loved the song Isn't she lovely? by Stevie Wonder. And the daughter's name is Ayesha that he was singing about. So, she talks about where her name came from and how she learned to appreciate it. So, I also tell people that when you ask the person, where did their name come from? You're asking about them. So, I go on to the power of words. When you speak over a person, the significance of their name is spoken over them every time you say their name. Right? Then also, even if a person doesn't know where their story came from, that's telling of their identity. Like where did your name come from?
Heather Newman
My name Heather comes from my mom and dad. They wanted to name me Sean or Heidi. Started out there. And then I believe there's some Scottish and Irish in my family. And so, Heather came from that. So yeah.
Chevonna Gaylor
So, what I heard from that is every time they spoke Heather, they spoke heritage, and they spoke love.
Heather Newman
Yeah.
Chevonna Gaylor
Because they were so intentional about picking your name that they mulled over several name choices, which means that they really care significantly about you. Then they wanted to give you something that was indicative of the heritage of your family meaning. So, every time they spoke your name, they spoke those things over you. And I'd imagine that you carry that love and that heritage with you throughout your lifetime.
Heather Newman
Yeah. Yeah, I've never heard that. But yes, yes. I love it.
Chevonna Gaylor
So, there's power in that. So now if you're a therapist, and you're fresh out of grad school, and you have no idea what to say, you're sitting there and you're stuck. Like literally stuck on stupid like uh, What do I say to this person? Ask them, Hey so where does your name come from?
Heather Newman
Interesting.
Chevonna Gaylor
Just that conversation can ease into like, if they say, I don't know, or whatever, wherever it goes, you can follow their lead and in guide that session, based upon just that question.
Heather Newman
Right, and that tells you a lot about their family, their parents, how they feel about their parents, how they you know,
Chevonna Gaylor
Even if they say I was born in the system, I don't know, I never knew my parents. Okay, tell me more. Or I was named after my father and he's in jail and I struggle with that. Whatever it is, it's so telling.
Heather Newman
Yeah, it's fascinating. I love that. Because when you're working and you're your manager or you're any of that stuff, sometimes you're How do I start a conversation with somebody I don't know, trying to get to know them and get to know me. I can't wait to read this. Yeah, that's super cool. Interesting. I can probably talk to you for another hour or two or four or 16. But maybe I'll take us into our last question. Moments and sparks. Moments in one's life that change us and I'm wondering if you could share with our listeners if you can pick one or maybe a couple - person place thing but quote - that really seat you in who you are in this moment in today?
Chevonna Gaylor
Oh, this moment today. Wow, that's a big one. Wow that's pretty powerful. Okay, so one more time, what was the question one more time, because my brain went everywhere, I'm like Oh I can answer so many different ways.
Heather Newman
Yeah, you know its moments, sparks, and its people, it's a book, the answers are all over the place all the time. Something that you would say, you know what? That moment, that thing, that really when I sit and think about sort of today where things are in the world with me, all of that, something that either changed you or sparked something in the way you think?
Chevonna Gaylor
What I would say, honestly, I'm gonna use a very funny story to that seems so surfacy, but it's going to kind of tie into more depth, Okay? So... lately and when I was growing up, I've always had kind of thick hair. Not super long but big kind of bouncy hair for me. And it's been something that I love. Now as I got older, over the last couple of years, my hair started thinning and I wear my braids a lot. It started thinning and I had resigned to the fact that maybe you know, it's hereditary. I'm getting older, it's hormones, it's genetics, I just have to accept this. However, over the past six months, I've been intentionally pouring love and light into myself, mind body and soul, including my hair. The products, the way I talk to my hair and my body. The way I talk to myself, the way I nurture that area of myself. And today I left the salon and she's like Your hair is back to where it was. It's actually thicker. My stylist is like it's thicker, the curl pattern is healthier than it was before. And she's like I'm really loving the way your hair - and I said wow, what you feed will grow. Like no matter what, don't let any of the - if you nurture something, it will grow. So, what I got today was if I nurture something in my soul, it will grow, and God is a restorer for me. Spiritually God is a restorer. So, there is restoration possible in anything that looks bad. So, it just resonated with me, like my husband and I when we were a young couple, I bought a home. And in the housing crisis, we lost that home. And it was devastating to me, but what I got in the message from my hair being restored was that home ownership and property management can be restored. That Investment can be restored, that relationships can be restored. Nothing that appears dead is gone. There's always that hope for restoration if I desire that, and I pour into it. So, I know that may sound silly, but really it was a profound message for me in this season of restoration in every single area.
Heather Newman
I love that that. Yes.
Chevonna Gaylor
Restoration is possible.
Heather Newman
Restoration and feeding your soul, and the power of positive thinking and words and intention.
Chevonna Gaylor
Yes, yes.
Heather Newman
And you know, hair is a big deal. (laughing) Let's be real.
Chevonna Gaylor
I just was not willing to accept the fact that oh, this is just something I need to resign to. This is something I just need to accept. Mind you, there are gonna be areas where acceptance needs to come. But that was not something I was willing to accept. I wanted to see if there was a way for me to change it. And I think that for ourselves and our lives, knowing that one of the things that I love to live by is You can heal. So, I'd love to have people know that if you're in a season that is hurting or difficult financially, physically, emotionally, interpersonally, medically, you can heal. I believe that we can all heal. I just released this. I'll send it to you, the five-step blueprint to healing
Heather Newman
Okay, cool.
Chevonna Gaylor
And it gives a five-step blueprint. I write out a five-step blueprint to what it looks like to heal. Because I believe that Everybody can heal. It will take work, but everybody can heal.
Heather Newman
Yeah, I can't wait to see that. That's awesome. I'm with you. I say yes, yes.
Chevonna Gaylor
Yes, yes, yes. Yes. So good. Oh, well, I'm going to put The Emerging Healer link there, and your website is chevonna.com. We'll put that in there. Yes, and see, so I didn't like the name. And then at the end I realized with this unique naming, unique spelling, I get chevonna.com. I mean, who gets their name as their website? Like Thank you. So, I have to thank my mom since she named me. And I've mentioned that in the story, that I learned to love it and appreciate the uniqueness of it, and it has been advantageous for me professionally. However, although there is so much depth, so much vulnerability, so many life lessons, and so much power in my book, and I share pieces of my mom story and my father story and just all of that, and the book is really powerful and engaging and entertaining and in depth. And my mom heard the whole story and at the end she says, Hmm, so you don't like your name? (laughing) Is that the Only thing you got out of my book?
Heather Newman
Nothing like our moms, to give us What? What?
Chevonna Gaylor
That one thing.
Heather Newman
That would be my mom too. Oh my gosh, that's hilarious. Oh, you are so wonderful. Thank you for what you do in the world for so many. I know you. I know because I know I know you and I and I know of you through lots of friends, and I know how much you reach out and touch people and change people's lives. So, thank you for what you do. Really.
Chevonna Gaylor
Thank you for having me so much, and for giving me this platform. And I can't wait to see you face to face and give you a big old school hug.
Heather Newman
I know. I know. I'm like yes, please. Sometime soon for sure. So okay, well, thank you so much again. I really appreciate it.
Chevonna Gaylor
You're welcome.
Heather Newman
All right, bye. Everybody, that has been another episode of The Mavens Do It Better podcast, and here is to another big beautiful day on this blue spinning sphere. Thanks everybody. Bye. The original music on this podcast was created by Jesse Case.