Transcript
Heather Newman: Hello everyone. Here we are for another episode of the Mavens Do It Better podcast where we interview extraordinary experts who bring a light to our world where we talk about technology, we talk about brand, we talk about what sparks people to be and do all the things that they are in the world. And I am here with Greg Frick from Zones who I've known a long time and we're sitting here. Where are we, Greg? Tell everybody.
Greg Frick: We're in Orlando, Florida at Ignite. Ignite 2019.
Heather Newman: Absolutely. And we just stepped into the podcasting center in community central in the hub. And, uh, I had booked this time and I hadn't really planned a guest. I thought, I'm going to book a time and funnily, you didn't even know this, but like magically I was like, you know what, I'm probably going to like talk to somebody and you said such amazing things when we were having our conversation out front and I was like, Hey, want to do a podcast about what we were talking about, so serendipity. Isn't that funny?
Greg Frick: It is funny. It's perfect. It's perfect.
Heather Newman: Absolutely. So yeah, and uh, what's great here at Ignite is they have this whole podcasting center. And uh, what also happened is we came in and I'm using a 4 HN Pro Zoom, uh, which I record on all the time. And I usually am not super fancy, I'm getting fancier. Um, but I usually just pop the record button on and you know, Greg was watching this whole transaction and we have this beautiful audio techs here and we're looking at this great equipment. Julius and Jim were like, well, if you let me plug in some stuff, I can make you sound a whole lot better. And I dunno. How do you feel on these fancy?
Greg Frick: Oh, I'm completely loving them. The sound is awesome.
Heather Newman: So yeah, we feel like we're on NPR, so absolutely.
Greg Frick: Absolutely. I listen to a lot of radio in my car. And this is that same sort of intimate, nice tone.
Heather Newman: That's awesome. That's awesome. Um, so we were chatting outside about, gosh, we were chatting outside about life. We were chatting outside about technology. Um, will you tell everybody a little bit about, let's talk about Zones for a second and what you do or, and sort of how you got to that place in your life for work.
Greg Frick: Oh, I'm a senior solution engineer at Zone. So I work on customer projects in the M365 space. So it could be things like migrations, it could be modern intranet, it could be Team's adoption. It could be any of those kind of issues that people are looking at. Um, it all, it sometimes bleeds into security, bleeds into, you know, Office 365 settings and governance and ways to keep your environment safe. So that's what I'm doing currently. Currently. Yes, that's my, my current gig. And uh, it's been, it's been a great experience. The company values training and that was one of the things is a meta value to that. I went in and they had like, you know, a week of training and it wasn't really relevant to my job, but the meta experience was that when you're being onboarded and you see an organization that has invested in teaching and learning and passing along the message, there's professionals and they're updating content and they're going to get a message across with the, you know, we're always learning, right? And so whether we're learning the exact content or we're learning because of the environment we're in, you know, we're always learning. And so I value that about the organization and looking forward to that journey wherever it takes me.
Heather Newman: I know I was, we were talking outside and you said a couple of things that I just was like, Oh, love it. And one, I use that hashtag always learning all the time, first of all. And you just said that twice, which is kind of awesome. And then we were talking a little bit about adoption and we were talking about the, the um, the "IT of no", which I thought was really interesting and I was like, I want you to write a blog post about that, but maybe could you talk about that a little bit? I love that comment.
Greg Frick: The "IT of no" is, I mean, my belief is that people are constantly making risk reward calculations. And I think in IT sometimes, especially in the cloud where things are so rapidly changing that if IT isn't resourced properly, then it's so much, and this has always been true in IT, right? It's a lot of times it's easier to say no and stop the deployment or the rollout or, you know, try to figure out and, and that can take your energy away, right? So if you're in an organization and you're trying to develop a solution or you're trying to move forward with your business and you want to, there's something you need to do or something that you want to try even. And then it runs into the wall. I think when Microsoft does the citizen developer stuff and the power platform and things like that, and before that InfoPath and SharePoint designer workflows, the idea was people that are engaged and interested in creative, they're creators, right? So they're getting energy from the fact that they are in an environment and their expertise and they can focus on a business solution that can deliver value to their organization at the same time. And I think this is really important, they experience growth and fulfillment, right? It's fulfilling and validating their, their special talents. And so when it, when the brakes get put on everything, not only do you not get that application and you can have a long conversation about, well, these citizen developed applications aren't governable. You can have that conversation and you should. But you also have that effect of training your employees that if they want to innovate or try something new, they're not going to be able to. And then if you get trained that a number of times you don't try anymore.
Heather Newman: Yeah. You get shot down enough, you stop trying. Right?
Greg Frick: Yeah.
Heather Newman: I mean it's, it's like you pop the balloon, it's like, all right, well the party's over and why should I even do this again? Yeah. I think that's an interesting thing with, you know, all the talk around adoption and training is that there's so many customers and that I've seen as well that, you know, they'll get an initiative started and then the person that's the champion, the one champion, they leave, they move on, they get frustrated or whatever and then the whole thing falls apart. You know? So to me a lot of the times talking about that, it's like, that's why you have more of a team collaboration when you're trying to do adoption or when you're trying to push or roll something out. And it can't just be all one person holding the cards, you know.
Greg Frick: So, the other place I went in our conversation out front was about improv and the relationship between improv and teamwork. It completely connects to these topics that we're, we're, we're discussing because in this, this idea of like that one person leaving and then the initiative sort of petering out losing energy. I mean I've experienced that too. I was involved with setting up communities of practice at the university of Washington and.
Heather Newman: sure, I'm a Husky. Go Huskies.
Greg Frick: Yes, you are a Husky, Go Huskies. And uh, and it was, it was great to work there and it was great to have the opportunity to do that. And we were all, I was also on a community of practice, community of practice. Like we were looking at finding ways to support and grow communities of practice. There is this idea that if there isn't that sort of one person pushing and driving that they'll peter out, cause there's this idealistic idea that I'll just launch the ship and it will carry on on its own. But it needs to be a need and it needs an energy input. It needs to be okay. It needs to be valued, I think. The segway I was going to make with improv was this concept of an ensemble. And so in some of the improv books that I've been reading, the most recent one is The Art of Is by Stephen Nachmanovitch. There's this concept of a, of an ensemble. So he's a musician. So he's talking about improv also in the context of making music. And so the thing that gets created in an ensemble is a product of all the people in the ensemble. And that's part of the culture. And that's what people negotiate and learn. If you're in a musical group and you don't learn to work with your ensemble, you might not be in that music group for long. And we even see, you know, like if you ever watch the Muppets, you know, you've seen Animal going nuts on the drum, right? He like goes Animal goes into his own thing and he's not part of the group anymore. So jazz. If you watch jazz, I mean people do a little head nod, it passes off to the other musician and they're, they're playing together, they're, they're working, they're connecting their music to what the other musicians are doing.
Heather Newman: It's improvisation. But, but improvisation is about like the energy and the beats in the room. You're riffing off each other and right?
Greg Frick: You are saying yes, you're saying yes. So you go nuts on your guitar, Heather, why don't you bring your guitar up? I'm listening to that. I'm gonna take that as an offer and I'm going to say yes and then I'm going to contribute what I have to contribute. And then like comedy or theatrical improv, there's that concept too of saying yes and. And a lot of people have read this because it's been all over. It's in the, you can just Google it. It's going to be an articles in Forbes, it's going to be an HPR. It's all around us. And the practice of it is this sort of exercising these muscles of saying yes and then we can do that. We, we had two of those experiences this morning. Right now I'm walking through the hall, I want to go to see what's new with private channels. I see Heather Newman and I say, Hey, Heather Newman, and we start a little conversation and then that conversation had full eye contact and personal connection and Heather said, do you want to go and do a podcast? Would you like to talk about that? And so, now sometimes I'm very much aware of my, no, that's okay. I don't want to be a bother or let someone else, there's a way that, you know, you have that sort of resistance. And I, and I wasn't we, maybe it's because we'd had a good conversation leading up to it, but I just said, yes, I will do this. I don't know what I will say. But if we're going to talk about teamwork and engagement and improv and personal growth and humans and humanity in IT, and what engagement is, and when it's a spark, you know, then yeah, we can have a podcast and I don't have to know what's going to come out of my mouth because I've thought about this so much and talk to so many people. I'm Very much energized about it.
Heather Newman: Yeah, absolutely. No, it's pretty, it's pretty cool. You know, I was a theater major at the university of Washington. So yeah. So the thought of improv and ensemble to me is huge because you know, people are always, a lot of people are like you a theater major and they're like, I'm not surprised that you were a theater major, but they're, but they go, huh, technology. And I go, yeah. The thing is is that I honestly always have approached everything like I am in a play because I've been a director, a playwright, and an actor and it is like even looking at something like Ignite, right? Your speakers are your actors. There's people who are producers who help pay for it, which are our sponsors. You've got the directors, people who run the show. We've got sets around us, lights, we've got this beautiful equipment around us. So like to me it's like, and the audience are the attendees without one of those parts, this doesn't work. Right? And so every honestly, like that's how I approach and have approached business working at Microsoft my entire career because that's where I come from.
Greg Frick: You would love the Applied Improv. There's a, there's a network called the Applied Improv Network, it's AIN. The conference last year was in Stony Brook, New York. I attended that. So when I, you know, I told you I went to improv camp. Well, when I was on their Facebook group, I learned from Erica Marks, um, amazing woman, generous woman as well. So, she said, Oh, well here's this Applied Improv Network conference. I went to their, their conference in Stonybrook and one of the themes was we're always on stage, and, and as I was sharing too, this is a related idea, but as I was sharing on that Facebook group about being a little nervous, like I don't, I'm not an improv performer. I haven't gotten on stage. I've stood up in front of groups and I kind of like it, I've kind of rift that way, but I haven't done like comedy improv. So, I thought, Oh everybody else will. And so I was kind of, I felt that sort of uncomfortable fear, nervous thing as I was posting on the Facebook group. And I said, yeah, but one person said, well, just kind of reframed it as not what's going to happen when I go there, but what I'm going to bring to it, like I have an opportunity when I go to that conference to show up with my full self. Sometimes I joke around and I said, bring my full Greg-ness, you know, with me. I was like, Oh yeah, so, and that was a good switch. That changes. That's just the emotional experience of being from what's going to happen, I'm nervous to I get to bring, you know, I get to, I get to give something, right? How many times do, if someone asks you for help, do you say yes and then when you need help, do you have a hard time asking? It seems kind of natural and, but it doesn't work without the, one doesn't work with the other. So, you know, going out and trying to be a full participant in that conference and the idea that we're always on the, that I'm making the connection between that idea. You've been bringing this through your whole career of, you know, theater and onstage and communication and you're creating an experience. It's not like you're not there. It also leads a lot of empathy because you're also, um, allowing yourself to experience possibilities. Like if you grew up with a narrative and a story that you're this kind of a person that does this kind of stuff, but then you play a character that does something different. Now you just expanded yourself and now you're not just that kind of person. The possibility for you being other kinds of people, whatever those stories are, starts to expand and open up.
Heather Newman: you just said so many things that like you're going to make me a little misty, like seriously. Cause it's, it's, so you've said it so eloquently, you know, it's, it's interesting too, I'm sitting here looking at you and behind you are all of these, uh, we're right behind the global D&I, you know, the diversity and inclusion booth with all these people and talking about empathy and all of that. And you know, to me theater is empathy, right? If we can walk a mile in somebody's shoes, we can see somebody's story on stage, we can understand them, understand the world, start with ourselves with changing a little bit about how we think about things. And you and I were talking about that a little bit about how, you know, if, if like our own biases about different things when we're, you know, talking to someone and it's like, how do we look at things in a different way? There was a, um, a tweet that, I think it was Sonya Cuff that put it out. It was about someone had come up to a booth and sort of made an assumption that the gal at the booth, you know, didn't, wouldn't be able to answer the technical questions. And it spawned this huge like, you know, um, long tweet chain. And I think it's all about where we're working on changing our perceptions of how, what our biases are and what we assume, you know, and all of that. And I think that's, that begins with a lot of that empathy of being able to see something through somebody else's eyes. And we don't always think about that. We just think it's the world is our frame, our own frame of reference. And people are just like us. People are so not just like us. Have you, have you experienced some of the stuff in the Humans of IT? And have you gone to any of the sessions?
Greg Frick: I have. I signed up for Humans of IT and I found, I mean it's an interesting conversation because with my, I have a, a long history of, of being in meetings where, um, there's a code of conduct where you don't share personal stories outside of the meeting. That you're creating this safe environment and it's, and it's, and it's a part of the code. So I was having a hard time translating, uh, into, uh, cause the women that we're talking about it were clearly moved by the personal disclosure of other people, right. Because we all are, right. When someone says I'm afraid or I'm scared or I'm at Ignite and I think everybody else knows each other and nobody knows me and I'm all alone. Or universal park. I could've gone dark at universal park. I went there alone. I didn't, I had fun. Then I ended up hooking up with a Christian and I followed on his little crew as we went on ride after, ride after ride until we absolutely couldn't go on any more rides. Um, but I just, you know, it's just a story. And so like when you share that and disclose, you know, personal vulnerability, people do feel closer. And it's true. It's true. Like what's true from me is, you know, like you say, yeah, we are all different. But in one way that we're the same is that we sometimes compare what we feel on the inside to how people look on the outside. Social media is, you know, that's the backlash of social media is everybody looks at social media and they say, wow everybody has perfect lives and they're all happy all the time and they're all at the beach and they, they're all, they're all in love and they have great dogs that can do cool tricks and I don't have any of it,
Heather Newman: right. Cause you're comparing your insides to their outsides and their presentation. And so being free of that is super important. And we sort of started our conversation with that and a little bit just sort of catching up and yeah. Made the comments of, you know, about like what you see out there. And I was sharing a little bit about, I was like, yeah, you know, I wrote recently about my own journey through some burnout that I had and shared some personal things with you. Cause I mean, we don't know each other all that well, but I was like, I dunno. Like I, I was like, I like him, I trust him, I'm going to tell him some stuff. You know what I mean? It's like, and, and I think that also, you know, we, we then sort of our, our conversation kind of opened up a little bit more and I was just like, wow, cool. I'm so happy I'm having this conversation with you. You know what I mean? Like truly. And I think it is what you see on social media. You're like, you make an assumption about people's lives, about what they're doing or Oh, they're going here and then doing this and all of that stuff. But you have no idea what they may be going through. You know? And not everybody writes about stuff like I do in particular or talks about issues because I just can't stop doing it, you know? But you know, a lot of people don't have that kind of outlet. And so like one on one conversations when we're at conferences like this or with our friends or kind of what we do or we don't talk about it at all and it gives us some terrible disease because we don't talk about these things, you know, I mean, I don't know. So yeah, I, I just thank you for that. It was really wonderful to like have that moment with you. I was like, let's go talk in the podcast center. Um, but I wanted to talk about, um, tell me, tell me your origin story, if you would like your, like IT, where are you from and all that good stuff. Will you give a little bit of flavor on that?
Greg Frick: Yeah. So like if we're doing like a story arc, I um, went to UMass Amherst and I studied anthropology. And so what was, I joked, I was like the closest I could come to studying ology. So, so I, I found that fascinating and I love, you know, and I gave a rap and I used to discount my rap, but I'm finding out that it's actually true and the pitch would be upsetting anthropology because I want to learn about how organizations work and how cultures work and how information is exchanged and how power is exchanged so that I can affect positive social change and, you know, and then I, I, I then went through a period of my life where I discounted that story because I thought, Oh, that was just a story. I was tricking myself thinking that's what I was interested in. Here I am in technology now many years later. And so I'll fill in that arc a little bit more. But just to jump from here to there now I find myself fascinated by when we talk about teamwork, you know, like one of the things that I've found motivating is, uh, that maybe I can help someone else realize their potential. Like I can re, uh, recognize or elevate people by saying, Hey, wow, you're really smart. That was a great solution. I didn't think of that. But you thought of that and have this sort of way of like enjoying the experience of, you know, being in technology but having people be more fulfilled and be validated for sort of their unique gifts and their skills. Right. Because it does take someone who's tenacious and creative and innovative and interested and energized to kind of dig into this like, so if someone is, you know, an administrative assistant and they say, I think I can do that in power apps. And then they spend their time on the online videos and find a way and then they get a, you know, they, they find a way to do it and then they bring all this value, their perspective of their organization. So they experienced this trajectory. So I find it satisfying to be a part of that. So, so that also ties into teamwork and how do we work together. I haven't been on as many teams as I'd like, where at the end of the year we all look at each other and go, Oh my God, we did that. Right, right. That experience of being so much better than I am as an individual because of the team. And that's that elusive draw of like teamwork. And I find Microsoft Teams appealing because it's a platform in which some of that can happen, that the product is technology and the way that it happens is people. And so I find that, Oh, I'm back to that thing with the, Oh, studying the way organizations work and how communication flows and how power is distributed and how that affects other people, that dynamic. That's also true in platforms and collaboration platforms as well. So I, uh, I didn't get a high paying anthropology job after I left University of Massachusetts. I didn't actually even, uh, graduate, but I, I was interested in social issues. So I worked for Mass Perk for a few years and then I worked for, uh, a campaign on national healthcare. And a lot of that was outward stuff where I was talking to strangers and asking them to listen or to buy into an idea. And so then I, I thought, okay, I need to get into, uh, get a real job. That's what I was thinking. That was the dialogue, right. Cause whatever, because that's.
Heather Newman: I did the same thing. I have theater. It was like I had my day job, my theater and then the real job, you know? Yeah.
Greg Frick: So, I got into computers many, many years ago. Leading Edge was one of the computer companies I worked for. Another company was a Mosaic, which made a clone of Lotus 123. A lot of listeners might not know what Lotus 123 was, but it defined, it was why people bought PCs back in the 80s. They wanted to use Lotus 123. And uh, and so I went to Comdex in 1986 and then I've had this sort of career in Massachusetts working in IT. I was a Novell administrator. I was into, when I discovered the internet, I thought it was amazing. And uh, and I set up web servers and got into web and I was a webmaster for a startup in Massachusetts. And, uh, when I was a webmaster, I got intoxicated by directories because the idea of having to log into different systems was stupid. That's what it used to be. There is like a login on this one, in a login on this one, and you had to remember all of them. Then it was all in the same company. And so I, I ended up getting into directory services and ended up by, uh, got a job at Siemens in their fledgling a networking communications group. And that was when they saw the writing on the wall about converged voice and stuff. And so, but then I thought life must mean more. And I took a couple of years off and I lived in, uh, uh, uh, Korean Zen temple and near Boston college and studied Shim Gum Do, which is, uh, uh, martial arts, which is with a sword. Uh, so mind sword path, that was a fencer. So I liked the swords anyway. So, and then, uh, after that I was running out of money, so I volunteered at a Tibetan Buddhist temple in Northern California and I helped build the Chintamani temple at Odeon. You can Google it.
Heather Newman: Where is that exactly?
Greg Frick: It's in Northern California, the mailing address is Cazadero but if you're going up route one, it's seven miles in on from Stewart's point.
Heather Newman: I lived in Sebastopol for a long time.
Greg Frick: Okay. Yeah, that's the area.
Heather Newman: I know where that is. I was like, wow.
Greg Frick: So, I volunteered there. So, so yeah, and my suggestion to listeners is don't get into construction when you turn 40.
Heather Newman: It's painful.
Greg Frick: It is, you know, it's like you're not working on a bench. Everything's, you're on your back or you're stretched out. It's painful. So then I, that when I finished that volunteer commitment, my brother said, why don't you live with me in Seattle? And so I moved in with my brother and then I found myself needing to get back into IT. And I got back into IT by way of, uh, being a trainer and I, I found SharePoint and SharePoint was a validation of all the other stuff I did with, you know, web and intranets and communications and, and, and I loved SharePoint. And so I stayed in the SharePoint realm and that's how we came to meet within the SharePoint realm. So I think everybody in, there's a lot of people in SharePoint that have stories like that. Yours is this probably like that.
Heather Newman: Oh yeah. Mine is a theater connection. So Nancy McSherry Jensen.
Greg Frick: I don't know who that is.
Heather Newman: She was the first group product manager for SharePoint back in 2001. She's married to Andy Jensen who I went to theater school with. And I was doing arts marketing in Seattle for open circle theater and a bunch of other theaters. My own theater. Grecks, I had a theater company. Um, and yeah, I got laid off from a job. I was working at an engineering firm that made digital camera parts that went on Fuji and Kodak, you know, those things that were actually cameras and digital cameras, not our on our phones, with film. So, um, they did like, they added pieces to them. And uh, so yeah, I got laid off from that job and was looking for something and he was like, Hey, you're doing all this great marketing for the arts. You should talk to Nancy. She's running this like new kind of startup thing at Microsoft that, you know, brand new. And I was like, okay. So I went and we talked and um, she needed somebody to write the first, write and produce the first 150 case studies for this thing called SharePoint. And she, it was, they were still calling it Tahoe at the time too. So it was SharePoint portal server, SharePoint team services. And I, we talked and she gave me the job and I said like you were talking about saying yes, I was 20 or 30, 29 at the time. And I just kept saying yes, you know, she would say, do you know how to put together a partner book and blah, blah, blah and do you know how to do this and do that? And I mean, I had no idea what I was doing, you know, I mean I'd always been a producer and so putting things together, that ensemble thing, totally, you know, like I can do it. And I learned and I mean I, I just kept saying yes, you know, and then that's when it diverted. But when we share point conference, that was an idea. I talked to Jeff Teper about that this week actually about that first one and deciding to do that event and asking Mr. Gates to be our keynote and stuff. And these were all just like ideas that we all had of like should we do this? And then Heather, Hey, call up this literally handed a piece of paper. There's 60 partner names on this list. Go call them because we need a SharePoint ecosystem and we need partners to validate the product that they're using it and building on it. Go call them. Like, so that was my entre neu and I, I've said yes for 18 years in various, in different ways as a full time, a vendor consultant, a partner now and MVP. So yeah, like it's the power of going, hi SharePoint and SharePoint, The community of SharePoint is just massive and also so strong. I mean you've probably have friends all over there, all over the place too from that.
Greg Frick: It is amazing. And the generosity is amazing when you think about like if you're at work, sometimes you write an email and you'll look at your watch and you just spend an hour writing an email. Well now think about all these people that are doing things in SharePoint and they're publishing these amazing blog posts with instructions and screenshots. And then they respond to comments. The gift of that contribution is amazing. And so there are so many people that have done that in the community and there's, I had an experience where I, in my last job, it wasn't going so great. I wasn't getting along with my manager and I was feeling kind of tapped out. Well I'd been the president of the Puget Sound SharePoint User Group for years. And so I was at this Office 365 Saturday, and I told people when they said, how are you doing? I told them like in the past, I might've said at different times, Oh fine.
Heather Newman: You see you went into your high voice.
Greg Frick: I did. Oh fine.
Heather Newman: I do the same thing. It's a tell when we're lying.
Greg Frick: Yeah.
Heather Newman: We go up here, it's all good, yeah.
Greg Frick: Yeah, it's great. It's great.
Heather Newman: Yeah, we gotta stay down here, it's great.
Greg Frick: Living the dream. So yeah. Oh, uh, so I told people what was going on and uh, it was amazing. People's eyes softened and then they said that they saw me. So people said things like, no, but you know, they comparing me as the guy up in the front of the room, you know, hosting the meetings and creating the space and, and people that, some of the people I've talked to had been in my training classes and one person said, no, you're really good at this stuff. And just stuff that, you know, we don't, we don't always get the luxury of hearing all the positive stuff all the time. As I was describing my challenges, I was getting a lot of positive encouragement and feedback. And then I left that. Uh, so I got the sessions that I went to at that Office 365 Saturday that were great and I learned something, but even more importantly was the connection to the community and that sense that I was seen and heard and valued. And that's the thing that I think as human beings that we want, we want to be, and I say that, you know, I said that in my session at the Office 365 meetup last month was like, yeah, we just want to be loved. We want to belong and we want to be valued. You know, and uh, well, you know, and that's where I think engagement comes from. You know, we're not always going to get a hug or we don't want it disingenuous either. We want it, we know the difference, right. When our, when people's eyes soften and then you see them as a person and you realize that you weren't seeing them as a person. Maybe you were in your co, I get into a cocktail party mode. Like if I'm in a social event, like with a community, I can be like, I have to talk to everybody for 30 seconds, right?
Heather Newman: Yes. The handshake and hello. Yeah.
Greg Frick: And then, but when you make that connection and it's real and it's like, Oh wait, no, I don't know. I mean it's that's so valuable. It defies time. Right. Cause we, we get into productivity. Early in my technical career I found myself being challenged by communications with other people. Then I realized that what had happened is the computer technology that I working had influenced the way I was looking at the world. So I was almost interacting with people at work, like doing a handshake ack-knack and then saying ready to transmit. And then then when they acknowledged, I would then give them the data and then I would close the connection and walk off maybe a check some or no, I wouldn't necessarily even know if it was valid. Right. That the packet had been received and that was like, that's not the way humans work. And I studied anthropology, so I know there are tribes where it's a long ritual of how's your mother, how's your father, how are you children? Like where you ask about everybody in the family before you see if you can buy the cow.
Heather Newman: Wow. Right, right, right. There's a ritual and protocol to certain things in how you interact with each other. Yeah, I do. You know, I, I'm sometimes I, my, my companies are not brick and mortar. You know, HQ is my place, you know, for both of them. And it is hard sometimes, you know, to feel that connection. I think that's why it's great to see people bring their teams to stuff like this cause you get to bond and then us as a community we get to bond and, and all of that. And I really appreciate that cause I do feel disconnected sometimes and I, I love, you know, Karuana was, we were just in her session.
Greg Frick: I was just in her session.
Heather Newman: Karuana Gatimu who works on the Team's team and does the champions program and so many other things. Who's a good friend and a colleague and you know, talking about like putting on the Team's video, you know, that that we're sort of forcing function of like turning your video on just so we get more of that connection and Teams has made that part of that, the product fun. You know, by giving us the backgrounds and giving us the blurs and, and, and, you know, making it a point to be like, turn your video on, you know, make that connection with people. You know, and we, a bunch of gals and I were on a call, it was early in the morning and I was in a bathrobe cause I, you know, my commute is pretty close, um, to my office and we all decided to turn on our videos and I was like, who is in pajamas? And people are like, uhh, and I was like, everybody's got to put their video on. And we'd like put the video and we had it and we were like, we laughed for a second and we're like, okay, let's get down to business, you know what I mean? And then we'd had our meeting, and they're like, it doesn't matter. It didn't matter that we were, you know, that we weren't made up or had ponytails in or whatever, you know. And I think like that to me is just like amazing and awesome. Like you couldn't do that not that long ago, you know what I mean? And it's also depending on the team and a person and all that. And don't get me wrong, I get gussied and put curlers in my hair and whatnot.
Greg Frick: Totally understood and just think about the one that, the thing that stands out is as my observation is that I've seen a lot of meetings where people don't turn their webcams on. And these are meetings where people are trying to do business with each other and they don't turn their webcams on. And I don't think they, I think it's one of these social, like I was talking to someone else, like if you see a piece of litter on the ground, right move. If you see something on the ground, right, there's some worlds that you're in where you will pick it up every single time because it's part of the culture. But if I was in the convention hall and I saw something on the ground, I wouldn't pick it up because you know, part of it is that there are 20 other people just walk by it and they didn't pick it up. And so for me to pick it up is to, to run counter to the tribe and the society and the culture that I'm in. So it's riskier, filled as riskier. And so if we leave, if people don't have any encouragement to turn on their webcams, if they don't learn that, Oh, that's such a, that's 90% of what we do when we communicate with people doesn't happen via our voice. Right. It happens via body language and seeing people and getting a connection. You look at a puzzled face, you give more clarity. You know, uh, and so that picking up that litter is sort of like, wow, we almost need to learn that. You know, think about Burning Man. The message of picking up moop is over and over again. It's in the literature. It's just part of it. You learn it. It's you don't leave matter out of place. You pick it up.
Heather Newman: Moop, M O O P. Matter out of place for those of you who haven't been to Burning Man.
Greg Frick: But it's not, not part of the rest of our world. So, when I came back from Burning Man, I was like, I picked stuff up and then I stopped because I, I didn't, yeah, I wasn't, I wasn't, I was, it's like being in an elevator. I mean, you turn and face the door. You don't have to.
Heather Newman: The, that leave no trace. And also that's, uh, one of the 10 principles of Burning Man. Um, and, uh, uh, Greg has been, I have been, I've talked about this before and so yeah, we were talking about Burning Man a little bit too, and about that sort of, you know, belonging that comes from there. And then sort of the, some of these things that are the principles of, um, Burning Man and yeah, I get it. You know, it's like I walk around here too, and, you know, I do pick things up, but I also, you know, from my event planning days, it's like I just, I can't, I can't see things and stuff. But there's other things that I think we could put in that example.
Greg Frick: Absolutely. And that's why I gave it.
Heather Newman: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's a great example because it is true. It's like, you know, somebody needs help with a box or something, or somebody dropped something on a subway and their hands are full. You know? It's like, you know, people just like stand there and like look and you're like, okay, the woman obviously, or the man or who, it doesn't matter what gender or whatever, but somebody just dropped something from their hands. Their other hands are full. Get up and pick it up and hand it to them. You know what I mean? Or, and maybe that's not my place to say that and maybe it's okay, maybe that person doesn't want help because sometimes you try to help somebody and they're like, I'm fine and you know, whatever. But you know, it's like, it's one of those things where it's like,
Greg Frick: I was trying to make the connection too between the behavior and why we don't turn on our cameras on our webcams, you know? It's like, and I think it's a related, it's similar to why we don't put our profile pictures in Teams. Like in you know, an organization. If there's no pictures, why won't people do that? And it's partly, I think it's because everybody else was walking by that litter and so they walked by it too. In this case it's not litter, it was just nobody else has their pictures in the profile. So they don't, and other people don't turn on their webcams so they don't, then they don't hear that message. So when we think about teams and teams adoption, it's like, yeah, there's really, teams has all the features you can do anything. And when I say that, by the way, I'm just, I'm saying that like the engagement with teams isn't for lack of features or functionality. Engagement with teams is for some other reason. And so it's about maybe we don't have a culture where we share knowledge. Maybe we don't want to talk out loud. Maybe we don't know when to talk one-to-one and when to talk out loud and there's, and so, and if I expand back from that, I like sometimes think like, why do we expect to all work in offices and cubicles and get along? Like, like, I mean humans are great, right? Because we do that on highways, right? Like I look at highways, well, I look at highways and I go, I'm surprised there's not accidents every minute, right? Cause we're driving 2000 pound vehicles within 12 inches of each other. And we kind of get along. Because we have a, there's a set of rules and protocols. We probably have some skin in the game, right?
Heather Newman: Right. So, and we don't want our skin on the pavement.
Greg Frick: Right, so we can work together. But sometimes it needs to be encouraged and there needs to be creating an environment where that's fertile for it. So my interest in doing the improv and teamwork is partly to help create that fertile environment where people are learning to listen and to experiment and you know, you know, and try things out. And, and where the culture of the organization is understands that before you get great at it, you're not going to be great, right? Like on the way on the journey you, you trip and stumble and make mistakes. So that's a part of it. And that's a, that's a principle of improv is, you know, there's the failure bow where you stand up and spread your arms and say, thank you very much, I made a mistake. You know, and you just acknowledge that you made a mistake because you're a human being and human beings make mistakes. And if you think that they don't, or if you think that nobody else in the room makes mistakes and you're the only one, you know, that separates us now we have to feel like we have to pretend to be something we're not. And how can we, how can we be, how can be fully engaged and fully fulfilled if we're pretending that we're something we're not? And so even in technology, even rolling out teams, even in using SharePoint, even in adoption, even in using Content Panda where it'll tell you what to do all the time in context while you're trying to do a job. Right. You know, and there needs to be a culture of learning, a culture of encouragement and knowing that when you don't know how, that you're, you're learning and that's, and learning looks like you're not doing it very well sometimes.
Heather Newman: Yeah. Well it's the quote about, um, not being a know it all but a learn it all. I think that's Satya Nadella, I'm pretty sure.
Greg Frick: That's a good one. There's a Buddhist one, which is that similar is like, is, uh, uh, to the, and I'm not going to get it exactly right, but it was, uh, to the beginner there are many possibilities, to the expert there are a few. You know, there's that idea.
Heather Newman: I like that. Yeah. That's cool. Um, I think we're going to get kicked out of the room soon. So I want to ask you one last question. If you don't mind. Um, thank you for the conversation by the way it's been so lovely.
Greg Frick: Even if we didn't have headphones it would have been fantastic.
Heather Newman: I know. Totally. I know, I'm like, yay. Um, so I always ask every guest on the podcast, um, if you would share with the listeners, uh, and one, it can be a couple, but maybe what's the sort of spark or moment or person or thing or place, you know, I'm doing the noun song from, you know, back in when we were kids and, uh, the conjunction junction, you know, um, that, that kinda got you to where you are right now in your life. You know, something that you can be like, ah, this really moved me. Or, or you know, somebody or something, you know. I know it's, it's a hard one, but it's also an, it can be a smattering of things as well.
Greg Frick: I mean, if I'm thinking about my, whatever, my DNA, I think that I have to attribute a lot of it to, uh, listening to my parents have conversations. So my parents would have guests over. And as a child I would be in that room just listening. I couldn't get enough of adult conversations. You know, my father read and there was reading going on in my house and, and there was wonderful conversations and I always loved it. So I think engaging with, and if I were to talk, you know, my favorite activities, you know, sometimes it's like, Oh, having good conversations is one of my favorite activities. And I think it's the exchange that happens that you learn, you get challenged, you get acknowledged, you get seen. And so I don't know if that's the kind of answer you're looking for, but I think about like, that's also allows me to then explore ideas. It allows me to, uh, work on how to say things well. I don't mean that, but I mean this and it's hard to fine tune that, right? And kind of experimenting with why, what, you know, why it's, you know, when it feels right. You know, kind of, I guess we're always adjusting our little calibrator right.
Heather Newman: Tweaking the button like a DJ.
Greg Frick: Yeah. Or like a radio dial. I think About writing like that, it's like turning a radio dial. It's like static, static static. Oh, there's a good station. Static, static static, there's a good station.
Heather Newman: I love the visual on that. Yeah. That's awesome. The answer I'm looking for is the answer you gave me. It's cool. I love that. Yeah.
Greg Frick: Thank you for asking me to be on your podcast. Do I get to be a Maven now?
Heather Newman: Sure. Yeah, absolutely. The expert comment, that's really interesting. You know, the Buddhist quote, I think for me, everybody's an expert, you know, and what they do and what they care about, you know? So it's like, so, yeah. But I'm encouraging people to find their Maven-ness. Like you, like you were talking about your Greg-ness. Like, you know, it's like find your Maven. It's like, what are you passionate about? What's, what are you expert about? What, what, what fills your soul with joy, you know, that's kind of for me, that's the dealio so yeah. Well we are almost to the end of Ignite getting close. Um, after five, five days, five or six, if you were here for the pre day, I'm sitting in that lovely, the lovely podcast center. Um, that I can't wait to hear this cause I'm ma, I'm hoping it just sounds like butter cause our audio we sound so good.
Greg Frick: Our audio sounds really good. Listening through this headset with this mic.
Heather Newman: I know I told Julius I was going to try and put these in my bag, but I don't think he's going to let me. So anyway, but I'm really what a treat and a serendipitous walk up. Wonderful. Thank you for being on the podcast. It's a delight.
Greg Frick: Delight was mine. I get to be on Mavens Do It Better podcast.
Heather Newman: So, thank you. Well folks, you've heard it here. That's another episode of the Mavens Do It Better podcast. Uh, and uh, here's to another beautiful day on this big blue spinning sphere.